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| Author: | Wolfe [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:54 pm ] |
| Post subject: | List or Coach |
There seems to have been said alot especially in the media that the Blues list is no good and dosnt matter who coached could they have done better than Pagan.. I acknowledge that Pagan has had a very successful career especially at North where he built up a team of players who grew with him when he became senior coach and expereince much Success maybe it had a lot to do with Carey and Archer. I also got the feeling by the end of Pagans career at North there where issues with the younger brigade at North and he only had support from Archer and some of teh old Heads.. He invented Pagans Paddock and explited that with the best CHF in the game. But his influence at the Blues can be anything but turbulent with him rushed in from the a last shot from Elliot. In a time when the Blues had been penalised badly by the AFL which didnt help..And of course implementing old fashioned yet successful tactics in the 90's on a team not equipped and without a gun CHF. After that we seemed to have had a multitude of changes of stratagy and recruitment polocies from recycled players to some youth... Not reflecting on Pagan from his past experiences his tenure at the Blues has seen a old fashioned approach to coaching ... lack of changes ... more confrontational style of coaching with players ... harder with Kids who dont react well to that style. Lack of oppertunity of playing kids properly as in extended time on the game and giving them some chances . And lack of success where you would expect to see 2006 improve on 2005. Its a daming fact that the Blues who should be really working with youth and in the circumstances have really gotten games under kids like Sanatnta / Kennedy / Smith / Edwards / Bower / Russell / Jackson / Flint ect prob a few others ... the only NAB nomination came from Murphy who was a step above the field... but we should have had 2-3 others expecially in a rebuild year. The Fact has Pagan been good for the Blues Positives * Initially big name Coach * Previous sucess * Come Success on his favorites - Simmo / Fev * Had a reputation of develpoing a young list from his early days Negatives * Unable to make change * lack of implementation of new Ideas of the newer style of how AFL is played * Lack of real success over last 4 years * The excuse of list so poor running thin * 2 spoons in 4 years * lack of comunication with some players ie Ex players have not been brought back into club / issues with baord * High Price tag - too costly for where we are and in situation we are in. * Unable to refresh coaching assistants * lack of oppertunity for the youth and not enough game time when played The List certainly was in poor shape in 2002 when Pagan took over ... is it still bad ... i believe the List now would be considered competative and with some great proespects with more to come .. In fact i believe players have stpped up and improved as individuals and some could be alot better than they are but as a team we have been very poor and this is not a reflection of the list but how we are coached as a team. The ERA for the younger coaches - The success stories these days from the newer brgade comes from Roos / Worsfold both relatively new out of the game well in comparrison to sheedy and Pagan. These newer coaches will have much better comunication with Players / relate better and be more aware of the new changes in the game and adapt relatively quickly. Ability to develope kids and surround themnselves with younger and newer out of the game Assistant coaches possibly helps also. RECENT EXAMPLES of Positive change Think of how a list can change within a year when a coaching change is made. Westcoast - September 5, 2001: After winning just five of 22 matches, with an average losing margin of 63 points, the tenure of Ken Judge was terminated two years into a three-year contract In 2002 - Worsfold Appointed and took the Eagles to finals / 2003 - Finals / 2004 Finals 2005 - Lost in grand Final (runner up) 2006 - COuld again be in Grand final Was the list poor when Worsfold took over or did the players not respond to Judge ... results say caoch was problem not list Crows - Neil Craig took over in 2004 after a poor season by the crows under Ayres last season ... where touted for bottom finish or spoon prospects List was aging and average as stated by many aroudn including Media Crows 2005 - Played off in fianls very strong year Crows - 2006 2nd at end of season look to get through as a strong prospect baring injury Aagin list poor or was it just a newer coach with new ideas and new inovations. There are certainly a few candidates out there for us too look at from Mckenna / Longmire / Royal / Cresswell / Harvey ect as well as players who have recently stepped out of the game. Regarding why would any aspiring coach want to come to the Blues ... The Blues list is emerging and shows some great prospects and maybe with a new coaching incfluence may show something different. Senior coaching gigs are like gold can make or break your career ... very few come available and new aspiring ocahes are wanting to cut there teeth at senior level as well as Ex - coaches wanting to get another oppertunity.. If the Blues have a viable opening for a new coach there will be many Options available who want to have the gig. Think of some Like Harvey owho have been living in Sheedies Shadow for 8 years ... not easy getting a gig so any coach in waiting would grab the carlton option with both hands. When they say they wernt that interested would be if there are multiple jobs available or they have been rejected by the club . |
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| Author: | ryan2000 [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:06 pm ] |
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I BELIEVE THIS LIST IS MUCH BETTER THAN WE MAKE IT OUT TO BE! |
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| Author: | Wojee [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Both. |
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| Author: | Dukes [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Wake up people - our list is sh!t and we're only just feeling the effects of the draft penalties and our poor recruiting of Livo, Sporn and Wiggins. We have very few stars, no senior core of players and will struggle regardless of who coaches. RE Adelaide and Neil Craig - I don't see a senior core anywhere near as good as Goodwin, Edwards, Ricciuto and McLeod running around in carlton jumpers. |
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| Author: | Carlton God [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:20 pm ] |
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After this draft the list will be OK. But that is the list not the team that goes out on the field each week, there is a big difference. |
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| Author: | CK95 [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:23 pm ] |
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Carlton God wrote: After this draft the list will be OK.
I liked your old stuff better than your new stuff. |
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| Author: | Tractor Boy [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:36 pm ] |
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Can we ask Geelong to take Pagan and we'll pay the shortfall in his payments... They do it with players and might save us some money.. After all The Cats might be looking for a senior coach... maybe ?? Rather than paying out the million plus it might just cost us 800K.... 
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| Author: | Blue Vain [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:04 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Dukes wrote: Wake up people - our list is sh!t and we're only just feeling the effects of the draft penalties
More Pagan propaganda. Our recruiting during the 02/03 "draft penalty" era was as successful as most. Fisher, French, Carrazzo, Bentick, Betts, Scotland, Walker, Simpson, Stevens were all acquired through our "draft penalty" years. Probably at least 5 of this top 10 in the B&F. Full credit to our recruiting team. There are many clubs who fared far worse. Dont swallow every bit of nonsense Denis throws up. |
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| Author: | kingkerna [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
our list is ordinary, not terrible, it is the coaches role to get the most out of what he has got - Pagan has not done this (except 04), he lost me with his 'we don't have the cattle' comments, can't have done much for the confidence of the players. Actually I lie, he lost me round 1 last year when we flooded against north after winning the wizzer by playing attacking footy. |
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| Author: | AGRO [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:10 pm ] |
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CK95 wrote: Carlton God wrote: After this draft the list will be OK. I liked your old stuff better than your new stuff. I think Satan nicked his password. 
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| Author: | Carlton God [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:10 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
French, Carrazzo, Bentick, Betts wouldn't even be in the 22 at other clubs. Fisher and Scotland debatable. So basically we recruited three players - Walker, Simpson, Stevens. Dont swallow every bit of nonsense Blue Vain throws up. |
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| Author: | jimmae [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:11 pm ] |
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Blue Vain wrote: Dukes wrote: Wake up people - our list is sh!t and we're only just feeling the effects of the draft penalties More Pagan propaganda. Our recruiting during the 02/03 "draft penalty" era was as successful as most. Fisher, French, Carrazzo, Bentick, Betts, Scotland, Walker, Simpson, Stevens were all acquired through our "draft penalty" years. Probably at least 5 of this top 10 in the B&F. Full credit to our recruiting team. There are many clubs who fared far worse. Dont swallow every bit of nonsense Denis throws up. And as for 99/00/01? 02 and 03 could have been huge without those draft penalties don't forget, throw a couple of other players on top of Simpson etc. |
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| Author: | woof [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Blue Vain wrote: Dukes wrote: Wake up people - our list is sh!t and we're only just feeling the effects of the draft penalties More Pagan propaganda. Our recruiting during the 02/03 "draft penalty" era was as successful as most. Fisher, French, Carrazzo, Bentick, Betts, Scotland, Walker, Simpson, Stevens were all acquired through our "draft penalty" years. Probably at least 5 of this top 10 in the B&F. Full credit to our recruiting team. There are many clubs who fared far worse. Dont swallow every bit of nonsense Denis throws up. 1995 - 1999 drafting Who is left after 5 drafts? Whitnall, Fevola, Houlihan & Prender. This hurts more because the players drafted in this period would be expected to carry a majority of the load today. Anyway Denis will be gone and I can live with that. I find it somewhat difficult to accept that the club won't go to the market place for the next senior coach. |
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| Author: | marciblue [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:24 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I almost agree with CG on some things. Our list is shit folks. There is no two ways about. Pagan is shit but so is our list. Unless Carrazzo improves disposal he could be phased out in 1-2 years Betts needs to learn to find the ball more often and not going missing for quarters on end Fisher has more credits seeing he is such a good mark but disposal is crap Bentick's pace is a problem We still need a decent influx of good talent to start turning it around. |
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| Author: | blueman [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
I think there will be an inevitable improvement in our performances under a new coach. I also think that after this draft we should have enough there to develop and put together a new team. A fair bit of this might not be to do with a different message and plan to the players, but rather a matter of giving a similar message but communicating it in a different way. We have gone through back to back wooden spoons with an experienced coach. At best the message and belief in his approach would be wearing a little thin, but its probably likely to be worse than that in reality. If footy is played 90% above the neck, then the 'change' that a new coach would bring would probably cause a significant improvement just on the change factor alone. As we have a young list that is part way through being developed, further change resulting in improved performances would also come as the players get better at their craft. A new coach would reap the benefit of this as well. I also believe that there will be quite a few delistings this year. Livingston Chambers Longmuir Prendergast just for starters. Others mentioned ealier like Carazzo Bentick Betts These guys are still young and deserve at least another season or so to develop. But yes, on current form many of the appentice footballers we have right now wouldnt make the list of other more experienced and skilled teams, but thats what happens when you have a young list and have to play them, the inexperienced apprentice players on their L plates get gametime and the fans are very quick to bag them. And if Denis played even more young players as some say that he should, I would think that many would probably be saying that the list is even worse than we are now. |
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| Author: | George Harris [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:35 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
There's a lot of also-rans on our list, no doubt, but the bottom line is we are performing way below what we could be capable of. This is due partly to game plan, and partly from a lack of confidence, motivation, committment, belief and mentoring... But wholly due to the coach. |
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| Author: | Dukes [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Blue Vain wrote: Dukes wrote: Wake up people - our list is sh!t and we're only just feeling the effects of the draft penalties More Pagan propaganda. Our recruiting during the 02/03 "draft penalty" era was as successful as most. Fisher, French, Carrazzo, Bentick, Betts, Scotland, Walker, Simpson, Stevens were all acquired through our "draft penalty" years. Probably at least 5 of this top 10 in the B&F. Full credit to our recruiting team. There are many clubs who fared far worse. Dont swallow every bit of nonsense Denis throws up. A few people have beaten me to the punch on this one but I have to agree with them ... we did ok with what we had to work with but there aren't too many real topliners there - at least not at the moment. Add this to our deplorable recruiting before that and our lack of senior talent and it's been a disaster. I just don't think Denis has been given a fair crack ... the list is improving (slowly) ... lets see what he can do. Maybe you shouldn't follow the 'its all pagan's fault' crew so blindly. |
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| Author: | Tractor Boy [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:43 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
marciblue wrote: I almost agree with CG on some things. Our list is shit folks. There is no two ways about. Pagan is shit but so is our list.
Unless Carrazzo improves disposal he could be phased out in 1-2 years Betts needs to learn to find the ball more often and not going missing for quarters on end Fisher has more credits seeing he is such a good mark but disposal is crap Bentick's pace is a problem We still need a decent influx of good talent to start turning it around. Our List is not as shit as we are led to believe by our coach. It needs development and some smart recruiting. Carrazzo comments are close to the mark. But all clubs have squad players, that will be him going forward. Betts is still young and to single him out is very harsh. With the right development and extra seasons Betts will surprise.Nothing wrong flashes of brilliance early but consistency wil be the key to a successful Betts. Fisher- Stewie Lowe improved his kicking so anything is possible over a career. Bentick too slow, well he'd be faster than Diesel and how quick was Ratten. Not all onballers need to be quick, there are the ones who get the ball out to those quicks. We not only need an influx but we need a NEW coach and a new game plan. How would you feel as a person ( player ) if your coach( mentor, boss ) kept telling the world you were not up to it. Pagan has destroyed the confidence and careers of more players at Carlton than those he has "developed". Where did he develop them by the way.... On the Pine... But you did say Pagan is shit too , so your on the mark..
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| Author: | marciblue [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 4:50 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
It is a combo of both but there is a tendency to overrate our list. Some of the trade suggestions in the recruitment forum are truly in the land of the fairies! This is indicative of some opinions The one thing that we cannot disagree on I suppose regarding Betts and Fisher is that they do need some improvement to become starting 22 players. Bentick is still capable of being exploited against quicker sides. That's the reality of today's footy |
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| Author: | Blue Vain [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 5:00 pm ] |
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Dukes wrote: A few people have beaten me to the punch on this one but I have to agree with them ... we did ok with what we had to work with but there aren't too many real topliners there - at least not at the moment.
Now we did OK did we? 
Walker, Simpson, Fisher, Scotland, Stevens etc. I thought those years put us 10 years behind? Now we did OK? Not to many topliners! I'd suggest to you that at least 5 clubs performed worse than Carlton during our draft penalty years. I dont see them squealing like pigs and winning successive spoons. Try thinking for yourself for a change.
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