TalkingCarlton :: View topic - How will all this mess affect our trade week and draft

If Denis is there come trade week, he needs to trade in our pick 17 or 19 for a top 7 with a player.

If he can do that, we're in good shape and the board and supporters will agree. That should snare either Gibbs or Hansen and Luenberger or another quality mid.

This could have an impact almost immediately with Murph and Kennedy starting the season also.

The Duke wrote:

why would the club or the supporters be over the moon at trading two things of quality to get one thing of quality ... we are ordianry all over the park ... we don't have to pay over the odds to position ourselves in the draft to get a player based on 'need' ... we have 'need' all over the park.

showbag wrote:

The Duke wrote:

Depends on how highly you rate a player like a Jeff White or Dean Cox. I would happily give up a decent 26-27yo or Houla and pick 17 if that's what's needed to get the ruckman of our choice.

We're very new at this whole 'Using draft picks to develop' thingy, in fact only 2-3 years experience.

There are only a few very rare circumstances where I would consider trading a good player in our position- and this year is the exception.

The Duke wrote:

showbag wrote:

The Duke wrote:

Well Jeff White was a pick 1 and Dean Cox was from the rookie list ... so one of them we wouldn't be able to get with pick 7 and the other one we wouldn't have to trade for pick 7 to get ... so i guess that highlights your point of 'us' being very new with 'using draft picks to develop thingy'...

Okay, I see my point has slid past without being noticed.

These ruckmen, regardless of where they are from, are quality and if you can guarantee that, as we would most likely be able to with Luenberger, and given Barny is gone, then I see it as a priority.

Unless you want to go with Batson who's a rookie and been playing reserves/reserves football and hardly setting the world on fire.

Maybe you'd like to look at Spida and give a top pick for him for a year or 2 - or what about a loser from WA with knackered knees??

But then, there's always Archie, right?

I have no buisness acumen

Never played football at the elite level

Have no connections to anything

But I write poetry - Vote for me!!!!!

Yep i reckon i'm a shoe in!

The Duke wrote:

your point didn't slide through unnoticed ... i just don't agree with it. I could suggest that you missed mine...
You want to trade two things of quality to get one ... and the further you discuss it appears less likely you will even get the player that you want. The is no guarantee that Luengerger will still be available at pick 7 ...

...you then bring Jeff White into the arguement who was a top pick and returned 'home' after 2 years - so that doesn't look like a good outcome..

...you then mention Cox, who was a player from the rokkie list i believe who was said to have 'awful' skills when he was first at the WCE ... so i don't see how that backs up your plan to trade away the farm for a ruckman either...

...and i think you'll find i am far from a fan of Gardiner ... don't see Everitt as the long term option ... and wouldn't hang my hat on DeLuca either - although he is my preference of the 3 ... but as you say we are new to this 'using draft picks to develop thingy' ...

Author:	Macfart [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:26 am ]
Post subject:	How will all this mess affect our trade week and draft
My main concern about all this hesitation by our board in relation to the coach is how it will effect us in the upcoming trade week and draft, If Pagen is replaced, I presume all of the coaching and recruiting staff will go with him Can a Synners, Cazz, or anyone else for that matter let me know how all this mucking around by our board will effect our performance in trade week and more importantly the upcoming draft. My big fear is the club not picking Gibbs, Hanson or Gumbleton with the first pick Cheers

Author:	Synbad [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:28 am ]
Post subject:
It wont affect which kids we take in the draft. It does make us a place not desirable for an AFL player to move to which affects who we will bring in through the psd ... wont affect recruiting staff...theyre not appointed by the coach

Author:	nightcrawler [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:43 am ]
Post subject:
If Pagan stays you would think he will be coaching for his short-term future next season. Opening the year with five losses would be unacceptable, so it will undermine any sort of youth strategy we might be trying to put in place. So I would think Pagan staying will increase the chances of us ending up with Gardiner or paying over the odds for Everitt. Depending upon who the replacement is, it could make us more attractive to players at other clubs. Lets face it, whether it's deserved or not, not many people seem to like Denis or want to be coached by him.

Author:	GodisNavyBlue [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 8:48 am ]
Post subject:
As long as a decision one way or the other is made reasonably quickly I don't think it will make much difference at all. Whatever the decision (although personally I would prefer to see the back of Pagan) if it can be presented as being the result of a full review of all available options then it should be seen in a reasonable light The worst scenario would be to go into trrade week without the coaching position sorted.

Author:	The Duke [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 9:36 am ]
Post subject:
If Denis is there come trade week, he needs to trade in our pick 17 or 19 for a top 7 with a player. If he can do that, we're in good shape and the board and supporters will agree. That should snare either Gibbs or Hansen and Luenberger or another quality mid. This could have an impact almost immediately with Murph and Kennedy starting the season also.

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

How will all this mess affect our trade week and draft http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12405	Page 1 of 2

Author:	showbag [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:11 am ]
Post subject:
The Duke wrote: If Denis is there come trade week, he needs to trade in our pick 17 or 19 for a top 7 with a player. If he can do that, we're in good shape and the board and supporters will agree. That should snare either Gibbs or Hansen and Luenberger or another quality mid. This could have an impact almost immediately with Murph and Kennedy starting the season also. why would the club or the supporters be over the moon at trading two things of quality to get one thing of quality ... we are ordianry all over the park ... we don't have to pay over the odds to position ourselves in the draft to get a player based on 'need' ... we have 'need' all over the park.

Author:	blueman [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:26 am ]
Post subject:
The idea of trading any top 20 pick is stupid in our situation. Bringing a mature ready made afl player on board by trading away one or more young but potentially very good players might be OK if you are a side already with solid core of mature players that might benefit by being added to. - I think Sheedy and some of his deluded supporters think that Essendon* is a club in that category. But our situation is quite different to that. Our 'solid core' of mature players left the club a number of years ago and werent replaced. The poorly selected crop of youngsters we later selected didnt come up to scratch - so we have a full on rebuild now of the most painstaking and time consuming kind.. So we need all the top 20 draft picks we can get.

Author:	bluehammer [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:29 am ]
Post subject:
Affect. Affect. Affect. Sorry, had to change the title. Every read was like a dagger in my eye.

Author:	The Duke [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 11:57 am ]
Post subject:
showbag wrote: The Duke wrote: If Denis is there come trade week, he needs to trade in our pick 17 or 19 for a top 7 with a player. If he can do that, we're in good shape and the board and supporters will agree. That should snare either Gibbs or Hansen and Luenberger or another quality mid. This could have an impact almost immediately with Murph and Kennedy starting the season also. why would the club or the supporters be over the moon at trading two things of quality to get one thing of quality ... we are ordianry all over the park ... we don't have to pay over the odds to position ourselves in the draft to get a player based on 'need' ... we have 'need' all over the park. Depends on how highly you rate a player like a Jeff White or Dean Cox. I would happily give up a decent 26-27yo or Houla and pick 17 if that's what's needed to get the ruckman of our choice. We're very new at this whole 'Using draft picks to develop' thingy, in fact only 2-3 years experience. There are only a few very rare circumstances where I would consider trading a good player in our position- and this year is the exception.

Author:	showbag [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:
The Duke wrote: showbag wrote: The Duke wrote: If Denis is there come trade week, he needs to trade in our pick 17 or 19 for a top 7 with a player. If he can do that, we're in good shape and the board and supporters will agree. That should snare either Gibbs or Hansen and Luenberger or another quality mid. This could have an impact almost immediately with Murph and Kennedy starting the season also. why would the club or the supporters be over the moon at trading two things of quality to get one thing of quality ... we are ordianry all over the park ... we don't have to pay over the odds to position ourselves in the draft to get a player based on 'need' ... we have 'need' all over the park. Depends on how highly you rate a player like a Jeff White or Dean Cox. I would happily give up a decent 26-27yo or Houla and pick 17 if that's what's needed to get the ruckman of our choice. We're very new at this whole 'Using draft picks to develop' thingy, in fact only 2-3 years experience. There are only a few very rare circumstances where I would consider trading a good player in our position- and this year is the exception. Well Jeff White was a pick 1 and Dean Cox was from the rookie list ... so one of them we wouldn't be able to get with pick 7 and the other one we wouldn't have to trade for pick 7 to get ... so i guess that highlights your point of 'us' being very new with 'using draft picks to develop thingy'...

Author:	Cazzesman [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:
Business as usual for all the recruiting staff! The job still has to get done, doesn't matter who the coach is. Whoever is incharge will still want intel and info on all the available players. Give the politics a rest this weekend and get behind the kids at MC Labour Park or the big kids at Teac Oval, Port Melbourne for the Bullants. Forget the stuff you all have absolutley 'ZERO' control over at this time and just enjoy the football. Enough people voted in a Democratic election to put the current board in place. Regardless of whether you voted for them or not they will make the decision. Such is life. If you don't like the eventual decision then chuck them out next time around and stand for election yourself if you feel so inclined. Until then there is nothing any of us can do so 'chill'. Regards Cazzesman

Author:	dannyboy [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:44 pm ]
Post subject:
I have no buisness acumen Never played football at the elite level Have no connections to anything But I write poetry - Vote for me!!!!! Yep i reckon i'm a shoe in!

Author:	Knackers [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:54 pm ]
Post subject:
It also begs the question, why, if the club was looking at a change in coaches, was there such a hurry to sign Kouta?

Author:	The Duke [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:06 pm ]
Post subject:
showbag wrote: The Duke wrote: showbag wrote: The Duke wrote: If Denis is there come trade week, he needs to trade in our pick 17 or 19 for a top 7 with a player. If he can do that, we're in good shape and the board and supporters will agree. That should snare either Gibbs or Hansen and Luenberger or another quality mid. This could have an impact almost immediately with Murph and Kennedy starting the season also. why would the club or the supporters be over the moon at trading two things of quality to get one thing of quality ... we are ordianry all over the park ... we don't have to pay over the odds to position ourselves in the draft to get a player based on 'need' ... we have 'need' all over the park. Depends on how highly you rate a player like a Jeff White or Dean Cox. I would happily give up a decent 26-27yo or Houla and pick 17 if that's what's needed to get the ruckman of our choice. We're very new at this whole 'Using draft picks to develop' thingy, in fact only 2-3 years experience. There are only a few very rare circumstances where I would consider trading a good player in our position- and this year is the exception. Well Jeff White was a pick 1 and Dean Cox was from the rookie list ... so one of them we wouldn't be able to get with pick 7 and the other one we wouldn't have to trade for pick 7 to get ... so i guess that highlights your point of 'us' being very new with 'using draft picks to develop thingy'... Okay, I see my point has slid past without being noticed. These ruckmen, regardless of where they are from, are quality and if you can guarantee that, as we would most likely be able to with Luenberger, and given Barny is gone, then I see it as a priority. Unless you want to go with Batson who's a rookie and been playing reserves/reserves football and hardly setting the world on fire. Maybe you'd like to look at Spida and give a top pick for him for a year or 2 - or what about a loser from WA with knackered knees?? But then, there's always Archie, right?

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Author:	showbag [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:36 pm ]
Post subject:
The Duke wrote: Okay, I see my point has slid past without being noticed. These ruckmen, regardless of where they are from, are quality and if you can guarantee that, as we would most likely be able to with Luenberger, and given Barny is gone, then I see it as a priority. Unless you want to go with Batson who's a rookie and been playing reserves/reserves football and hardly setting the world on fire. Maybe you'd like to look at Spida and give a top pick for him for a year or 2 - or what about a loser from WA with knackered knees?? But then, there's always Archie, right? your point didn't slide through unnoticed ... i just don't agree with it. I could suggest that you missed mine... You want to trade two things of quality to get one ... and the further you discuss it appears less likely you will even get the player that you want. The is no guarantee that Luengerger will still be available at pick 7 ... ...you then bring Jeff White into the arguement who was a top pick and returned 'home' after 2 years - so that doesn't look like a good outcome.. ...you then mention Cox, who was a player from the rokkie list i believe who was said to have 'awful' skills when he was first at the WCE ... so i don't see how that backs up your plan to trade away the farm for a ruckman either... ...and i think you'll find i am far from a fan of Gardiner ... don't see Everitt as the long term option ... and wouldn't hang my hat on DeLuca either - although he is my preference of the 3 ... but as you say we are new to this 'using draft picks to develop thingy' ...

Author:	jimmae [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:
Then there's always next year if we can't secure that pick. Personally I'd want a mid. I'm not 100% sold on Leuenberger, but I'm not doubting he'd be a good tap ruckman. It's the rest of his game that I'm not sold on.

Author:	TruBlueBrad [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:38 pm ]
Post subject:
dannyboy wrote: I have no buisness acumen Never played football at the elite level Have no connections to anything But I write poetry - Vote for me!!!!! Yep i reckon i'm a shoe in! Did your Grandfather play for the club and do you have an obsession with the number 5 though?

Author:	The Duke [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:49 pm ]
Post subject:
showbag wrote: The Duke wrote: Okay, I see my point has slid past without being noticed. These ruckmen, regardless of where they are from, are quality and if you can guarantee that, as we would most likely be able to with Luenberger, and given Barny is gone, then I see it as a priority. Unless you want to go with Batson who's a rookie and been playing reserves/reserves football and hardly setting the world on fire. Maybe you'd like to look at Spida and give a top pick for him for a year or 2 - or what about a loser from WA with knackered knees?? But then, there's always Archie, right? your point didn't slide through unnoticed ... i just don't agree with it. I could suggest that you missed mine... You want to trade two things of quality to get one ... and the further you discuss it appears less likely you will even get the player that you want. The is no guarantee that Luengerger will still be available at pick 7 ... ...you then bring Jeff White into the arguement who was a top pick and returned 'home' after 2 years - so that doesn't look like a good outcome.. ...you then mention Cox, who was a player from the rokkie list i believe who was said to have 'awful' skills when he was first at the WCE ... so i don't see how that backs up your plan to trade away the farm for a ruckman either... ...and i think you'll find i am far from a fan of Gardiner ... don't see Everitt as the long term option ... and wouldn't hang my hat on DeLuca either - although he is my preference of the 3 ... but as you say we are new to this 'using draft picks to develop thingy' ... http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=12262 See Mojos fine and detailed assessment of Luenberger here You may pick him up at 17, but I doubt it going on Mojo's assessment. I don't car where Cox came from or what he was like as a teenager - I want to know that we can get a ruckmen equal to, or better than Cox. If that means giving up 17 and a excess player then so be it.

Author:	showbag [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:
As far as i know there is no guarantee that Luenberger will be as good as Cox ... or that someone we pick up later in the draft (who works their butt off as Cox did) won't be as good as Cox ... but maybe i'm wrong... ... look, why don't you check with Mojo and then get back to me ...

Author:	Pafloyul [ Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:
Showbag, I understand your "two things of quality to get one" arguement but it is not quite as simple as that. You look at the makeup of each draft and which picks will give you the chance of getting the most value. For instance, I would rate pick 4 and 54 in this draft ahead of 17 and 19. This is because I believe that, on top of the value of pick 5, pick 54 will give us a much better chance of getting a 'project' player of value than pick 70+.