Didn't we have a thread for this...?
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| Correct me if I’m wrong but… http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12352 |
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| Author: | Ockham's Razor [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:12 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Correct me if I’m wrong but… |
...I seem to remember that when Denis came to the club the core group of players had the attitude that they ran the show. They trained if they wanted to, did weights if they wanted to and player “welfare†|
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| Author: | true_blue3 [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:17 pm ] |
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i completely agree with that, our club was really falling behind and we didnt have the professionalism that ll other clubs had and denis has really played a lone hand IMO in trying to bring this club up to date with the attitude and culture required. denis has done a fanstastic job with all the young players you have mentioned and especially fev, no senior player has blossomed under him with the exception of lappin and possibly scotland. all of our other senior players either retired or left the club and he's worked his butt of with all the young blokes and has set a really good foundation for thsi club, if only our board was a bit more professional in the past and we had things such as better facilities we might not be in such a bad position but full credit to denis and i hope he coaches for at least another 2 years and these young blokes that he's raised all by himself will bear fruit. |
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| Author: | TheGame [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:33 pm ] |
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I'll say it again it's not about blame, it's about reviewing the last 4 years and ask 'Is this working?' The answer is no, even the biggest Paganites will admit this. The club then needs to decide 'Do we keep going like this and hope it magically turns around?' or 'Do we cut our losses and try something else?' I reckon we've seen the last of him. |
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| Author: | GWS [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:34 pm ] |
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Didn't we have a thread for this...?
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| Author: | Andain [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:37 pm ] |
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TheGame wrote: I'll say it again it's not about blame, it's about reviewing the last 4 years and ask 'Is this working?' The answer is no, even the biggest Paganites will admit this. The club then needs to decide 'Do we keep going like this and hope it magically turns around?' or 'Do we cut our losses and try something else?'
I reckon we've seen the last of him. Bingo. Pagan may not be the cause of all our problems but it's fairly safe to say at this point that he isn't the solution either. |
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| Author: | woof [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:38 pm ] |
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TheGame wrote: I'll say it again it's not about blame, it's about reviewing the last 4 years and ask 'Is this working?' The answer is no, even the biggest Paganites will admit this. The club then needs to decide 'Do we keep going like this and hope it magically turns around?' or 'Do we cut our losses and try something else?'
I reckon we've seen the last of him. Sticks was involved in signing Pagan, Sticks was involved with re-signing Pagan and Sticks is involved in the current review. He needs to remove himself from the process as I have no confidence that the process required to answer the questions over the football department will be followed. |
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| Author: | Blue Vain [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:38 pm ] |
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Cant agree Ockham. Denis had full reign to rebuild from the ground up. The board including Ian Collins told Pagan that the list was shot and needed a rebuild. Pagan thought Carlton could top up and become a finals side immediately. 
He chose a direction to take and must be accountable for it. He decided to draft big bodies to play his preferred style of game. A quality coach would have chosen a game plan to suit the list. Players like Mott, Bowyer, Johnson, Harford, Martyn, Saddington, Chambers have all been bought to the club with draft picks. Not traded for existing players, draft picks! Draft picks that could have been utilised on youth but were used for a bloody minded direction that has led our club up shit creek. Pagan had the opportunity to rebuild with youth entirely and didnt have the courage or sense to do so. Make excuses all you want Ockham but the results are on the board. Denis bleats about draft penalties etc but in the 2 years we were excluded we picked up Simpson, Walker, Stevens, French, Fisher, Betts, Bentick, Carrazzo. Well done by the recruiters I'd say! There would be several clubs who did far worse than Carlton in those drafts. |
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| Author: | Ockham's Razor [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:39 pm ] |
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Sorry GWS, Feel free to merge it with the bland sack Pagan thread if you like or delete - whichever you prefer. I was simply trying to get a message across that it isn't all Denis' fault as many would try to have everyone believe. |
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| Author: | Deano Supremo [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:42 pm ] |
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TheGame wrote: I'll say it again it's not about blame, it's about reviewing the last 4 years and ask 'Is this working?' The answer is no, even the biggest Paganites will admit this. The club then needs to decide 'Do we keep going like this and hope it magically turns around?' or 'Do we cut our losses and try something else?'
I reckon we've seen the last of him. The Carlton of old doesn't accept losses like last Sunday, and a few others we've had the past four years. I think someone has to go. The club needs to 'fly the flag', and show the football world that this sort of gear is not tolerated at Carlton anymore. Traditionally, the coach is the scapegoat. Unfortunately, I think you're right Game. I reckon Denis might just be gone. |
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| Author: | TheGame [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:51 pm ] |
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Deano Supremo wrote: TheGame wrote: I'll say it again it's not about blame, it's about reviewing the last 4 years and ask 'Is this working?' The answer is no, even the biggest Paganites will admit this. The club then needs to decide 'Do we keep going like this and hope it magically turns around?' or 'Do we cut our losses and try something else?' I reckon we've seen the last of him. The Carlton of old doesn't accept losses like last Sunday, and a few others we've had the past four years. I think someone has to go. The club needs to 'fly the flag', and show the football world that this sort of gear is not tolerated at Carlton anymore. Traditionally, the coach is the scapegoat. Unfortunately, I think you're right Game. I reckon Denis might just be gone. Hopefully the club and coach can go their seperate ways amicably with Pagan stepping down and the club giving him a reasonable settlement. That way he can leave with his dignity. |
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| Author: | dannyboy [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:02 pm ] |
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na this will not be amicable |
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| Author: | Kouta [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:21 pm ] |
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We're up shit creek because of the drafting of Livo, Vance, Massie, Chatfield, etc. with early picks and the trading of Parkin and Brittain for hasbeens. The players we should have drafted would be leading the side right now and the rot had already set in. Picking up kids like Norman and Croad isn't where you build a side but find support for your A grade kids, it's our development of the kids that has been subpar under Pagan. Simpson and Walker are guns who needed time to reach the standard they at right now. Having a Carrazzo, Fisher, Bentick isn't a patch on having a Mundy, Mclean, Goddard and Wells coming onto your list. The likes of Caroline Wilson praised us at the time for doing well in trade week in 2002.  
Scotland and French are his only success stories after they had their best even seasons in the AFL. |
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| Author: | Andain [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:23 pm ] |
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JuzzCarlton wrote: We're up shit creek because of the drafting of Livo, Vance, Massie, Chatfield, etc. with early picks and the trading of Parkin and Brittain for hasbeens. We picked up kids like Norman and Croad in the 2002 draft but it's our development of the kids that has been subpar under Pagan.
Simpson and Walker are guns who needed time to reach the standard they at right now. Having a Carrazzo, Fisher, Bentick isn't a patch on having a Mundy, Mclean, Goddard and Wells coming onto your list. The likes of Caroline Wilson praised us at the time for doing well in trade week in 2002. Scotland and French are his only success stories after they had their best even seasons in the AFL. I think he might have had some slight success with Fevola too... 
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| Author: | true_blue3 [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:25 pm ] |
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Andain wrote: JuzzCarlton wrote: We're up shit creek because of the drafting of Livo, Vance, Massie, Chatfield, etc. with early picks and the trading of Parkin and Brittain for hasbeens. We picked up kids like Norman and Croad in the 2002 draft but it's our development of the kids that has been subpar under Pagan. Simpson and Walker are guns who needed time to reach the standard they at right now. Having a Carrazzo, Fisher, Bentick isn't a patch on having a Mundy, Mclean, Goddard and Wells coming onto your list. The likes of Caroline Wilson praised us at the time for doing well in trade week in 2002. Scotland and French are his only success stories after they had their best even seasons in the AFL. I think he might have had some slight success with Fevola too... i think JC was talking about success with trades...might be wrong. |
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| Author: | Wet Willie [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:29 pm ] |
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Blue Vain wrote: Cant agree Ockham.
Denis had full reign to rebuild from the ground up. The board including Ian Collins told Pagan that the list was shot and needed a rebuild. Pagan thought Carlton could top up and become a finals side immediately. He chose a direction to take and must be accountable for it. He decided to draft big bodies to play his preferred style of game. A quality coach would have chosen a game plan to suit the list. Players like Mott, Bowyer, Johnson, Harford, Martyn, Saddington, Chambers have all been bought to the club with draft picks. Not traded for existing players, draft picks! Draft picks that could have been utilised on youth but were used for a bloody minded direction that has led our club up shit creek. Pagan had the opportunity to rebuild with youth entirely and didnt have the courage or sense to do so. Make excuses all you want Ockham but the results are on the board. Denis bleats about draft penalties etc but in the 2 years we were excluded we picked up Simpson, Walker, Stevens, French, Fisher, Betts, Bentick, Carrazzo. Well done by the recruiters I'd say! There would be several clubs who did far worse than Carlton in those drafts. Great post, BV... |
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| Author: | Kouta [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:41 pm ] |
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true_blue24 wrote: Andain wrote: JuzzCarlton wrote: We're up shit creek because of the drafting of Livo, Vance, Massie, Chatfield, etc. with early picks and the trading of Parkin and Brittain for hasbeens. We picked up kids like Norman and Croad in the 2002 draft but it's our development of the kids that has been subpar under Pagan. Simpson and Walker are guns who needed time to reach the standard they at right now. Having a Carrazzo, Fisher, Bentick isn't a patch on having a Mundy, Mclean, Goddard and Wells coming onto your list. The likes of Caroline Wilson praised us at the time for doing well in trade week in 2002. Scotland and French are his only success stories after they had their best ever seasons in the AFL. I think he might have had some slight success with Fevola too... i think JC was talking about success with trades...might be wrong. I was talking about trades. |
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| Author: | Effes [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:46 pm ] |
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No one is saying we should have picked Tuck, Raines, S Fisher etc with each pick. However, we did not even pick up one 'rookie' during the higher picks of the 2003 draft. Can anyone explain the recruitment of Mick Martyn and then the process in which he was given his 300th game? |
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| Author: | Andain [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:55 pm ] |
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JuzzCarlton wrote: true_blue24 wrote: Andain wrote: JuzzCarlton wrote: We're up shit creek because of the drafting of Livo, Vance, Massie, Chatfield, etc. with early picks and the trading of Parkin and Brittain for hasbeens. We picked up kids like Norman and Croad in the 2002 draft but it's our development of the kids that has been subpar under Pagan. Simpson and Walker are guns who needed time to reach the standard they at right now. Having a Carrazzo, Fisher, Bentick isn't a patch on having a Mundy, Mclean, Goddard and Wells coming onto your list. The likes of Caroline Wilson praised us at the time for doing well in trade week in 2002. Scotland and French are his only success stories after they had their best ever seasons in the AFL. I think he might have had some slight success with Fevola too... i think JC was talking about success with trades...might be wrong. I was talking about trades. Well its hard to have success with trades when you aren't wiling to trade anything of value. From memory Scotland was the only player we traded a thrid round pick (or earlier) for. |
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