TalkingCarlton :: View topic - Coaching Axe Looms for Denis Pagan

don't know where we are going to get the money to pay him out. Either Mitchel or Pagan will not be at the club next year.

For the sake of our club, fork out the frigin money and promote change. I'm sick of mediocrity. Pagan arrived at the wrong time.

No use being crap and finishing 9th.

Jarusa wrote:

No use being crap and finishing 9th.

extremely well said Jar....i use that all the time when people give me shit about getting the spoon....my comeback is always....

"well, we didnt win the flag, no, but neither did 14 other teams, and we get the next best thing, the best youngster the country has to offer, if you cant win a flag, whats the point?"

If there's only one more year to go and then our list will be nice and developed, these past four years have been awesome.

verbs wrote:

If there's only one more year to go and then our list will be nice and developed, these past four years have been awesome.

Yep .. but Pagan has to go...

One more year of this and a whole heap of real development and were on the road to going somewhere big.
Our list will be filled out substantially.

The problem with Denis is four years on ,we have no system... our skills suck..and outside of Fev he isnt liked.

Whichever way it goes, Smorgon needs to make a definitive statement quickly. If Pagan is on his way out then it needs to be said now, if he is staying then it also needs to be said now. The club needs to enter trade week with the coach's job decided one way or another.

no no verbs, whoever comes in will have the golden touch, course if they don't the its another 3 years and then this all starts again.

I hate the idea we might sack Deni and replace him with Barry with no other process than - 'F@%&#! lets save our necks and get rid of Denis!'

If the club wishes to sack Denis then do it!

Seek the next appointment and choose the best.

Otherwise shut the F@%&#! up, let him coach and either set the wheels in motion for next year or the year after.

Author:	Skippers Blues [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:28 am ]
Post subject:	Coaching Axe Looms for Denis Pagan
http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/ ... 22,00.html interesting article

Author:	FrenZy [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:13 am ]
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don't know where we are going to get the money to pay him out. Either Mitchel or Pagan will not be at the club next year.

Author:	TheBluesMuse [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:27 am ]
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This sounds exciting.

Author:	jim [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 6:46 am ]
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FrenZy wrote: don't know where we are going to get the money to pay him out. Either Mitchel or Pagan will not be at the club next year. An increase in membership and match day revenue. More than cover it in one year. Membership will way more easier to sell with a new coach. By contrast there's a chance with Pagan there membership would go backwards.

Author:	mjonc [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:59 am ]
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For the sake of our club, fork out the frigin money and promote change. I'm sick of mediocrity. Pagan arrived at the wrong time.

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Author:	Barnesy [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:04 am ]
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Most of Pagan's tenure as coach of Carlton is subjective. ie. the list he has too work with what he took over when he came too the club that he has lost the playing group his methods are out dated etc etc etc What is objective for me is selections such as Mott, Chambers, Longmuir, Johnson, Saddington etc, when we should have given kids a go. But then is that all his fault as well. The average person like me no matter how hard you try, cannot build an educated assesment, because it's too hard. Is win / loss indicative given the circumstances, can we prove coaching methods from the outer sanctum???? I think it's time for change, but not just for changes sake. But I think that a new coach may bring a fresh momentum in the club not just from a coaching the playing group perspective, but yes a corporate, membership component as well. A line up of Mitchell, Ratten, and Peter Dean may be ok

Author:	Molly [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:10 am ]
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Whichever way it goes, Smorgon needs to make a definitive statement quickly. If Pagan is on his way out then it needs to be said now, if he is staying then it also needs to be said now. The club needs to enter trade week with the coach's job decided one way or another.

Author:	Sniff Wilson [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:10 am ]
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im thinking a line up of Mitchell, Silvagni, Ratten and Dean.......my god that would be impressive... Mitchell-Senior Coach Ratten-Midfield/assistant Coach Silvagni-Backline/Assistant Coach Dean-Bullants/Assistant Coach with Sticks to cameo as forward line coach.

Author:	Jarusa [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:13 am ]
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mjonc wrote: For the sake of our club, fork out the frigin money and promote change. I'm sick of mediocrity. Pagan arrived at the wrong time. Mediocrity would have been finishing 9-13th on the ladder the last 2 years. We have been crap not mediocre. If we had finished 9-13th in 2005-2006 the club would have missed out on Murphy, Kennedy and Gibbs/Hansen. In footy tipping it is as difficult to pick 0 as it is to pick 8. If you are in a position to win a premiership you have to do the job properly. If you are crap you have to do the job properly. No use being crap and finishing 9th. Be crap and be crap properly, finishing with 2 wooden spoons in a row is going to lay a solid base for this club's future success in 5 or 6 years time.

Author:	Wolfe [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:14 am ]
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The future of the Blues and of Pagan has to be seen on the big picture. The results of the last 2 years with wining back to back spoons should be a clear indication of change.. One thing i believe Pagan has brought this on himself is that last year after the first spoon there was a strong push to change the assistants but Pagan argued to keep all the same though adding some part time help. 12 months later same ... well worse result so in terms of success we have gone backwards though i do believe on the player list we have gone forward. Other issues will be doe Pagan now associated with 2 spoons and 7 games in 2 years mean less membership .. are sponsers not putting all there support behind the blues ... are there benefactors who would give greater support but a holding back. Are we being affected in attracting players from other clubs beacuase some players dont want to now play under Pagan. The main issue is that clearly the coaching department needs to be shaken up and last year the Assistants where under the hammer but Pagan protected and kept them on board.. now 12 months later worse result would seem that the coach and assistants may all go. I do believe if Pagan had allowed change last year he may not be in the position he is today ... but same group same worse result something now has to change

Author:	Sniff Wilson [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:15 am ]
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Jarusa wrote: No use being crap and finishing 9th. extremely well said Jar....i use that all the time when people give me shit about getting the spoon....my comeback is always.... "well, we didnt win the flag, no, but neither did 14 other teams, and we get the next best thing, the best youngster the country has to offer, if you cant win a flag, whats the point?"

Author:	Synbad [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:24 am ]
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One more year of this and a whole heap of real development and were on the road to going somewhere big. Our list will be filled out substantially. The problem with Denis is four years on ,we have no system... our skills suck..and outside of Fev he isnt liked.

Author:	SOS [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:30 am ]
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bnz wrote: Jarusa wrote: No use being crap and finishing 9th. extremely well said Jar....i use that all the time when people give me shit about getting the spoon....my comeback is always.... "well, we didnt win the flag, no, but neither did 14 other teams, and we get the next best thing, the best youngster the country has to offer, if you cant win a flag, whats the point?" Or you could just say, "Wooden Spoon? You mean Golden Spoon, don't you?".

Author:	verbs [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:32 am ]
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If there's only one more year to go and then our list will be nice and developed, these past four years have been awesome.

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Author:	Synbad [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:34 am ]
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verbs wrote: If there's only one more year to go and then our list will be nice and developed, these past four years have been awesome. Yep .. but Pagan has to go...

Author:	verbs [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:36 am ]
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Synbad wrote: verbs wrote: If there's only one more year to go and then our list will be nice and developed, these past four years have been awesome. Yep .. but Pagan has to go... Silvagni coach, Kernahan president. I like it.

Author:	Jarusa [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:37 am ]
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Synbad wrote: One more year of this and a whole heap of real development and were on the road to going somewhere big. Our list will be filled out substantially. The problem with Denis is four years on ,we have no system... our skills suck..and outside of Fev he isnt liked. I understand that Synbad, but what I am worried about is a Mitchell coming in and having a honeymoon period, which means we have a 2004 all over again where the list 'plays above' itself. If Mitchell is instructed that he must play as many kids as possible and do a 'Hawthorn 2005' then maybe it will be OK. I have a feeling Mitchell will be used as a bit of a sacrificial pawn in readiness for the coach that will be used to have a crack at the premiership if he replaces Denis. Nothing wrong with that as long as it benefits the club long term.

Author:	dannyboy [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:37 am ]
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no no verbs, whoever comes in will have the golden touch, course if they don't the its another 3 years and then this all starts again. I hate the idea we might sack Deni and replace him with Barry with no other process than - '@#$%&! lets save our necks and get rid of Denis!' If the club wishes to sack Denis then do it! Seek the next appointment and choose the best. Otherwise shut the @#$%&! up, let him coach and either set the wheels in motion for next year or the year after.

Author:	camel [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:38 am ]
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Molly wrote: Whichever way it goes, Smorgon needs to make a definitive statement quickly. If Pagan is on his way out then it needs to be said now, if he is staying then it also needs to be said now. The club needs to enter trade week with the coach's job decided one way or another. I agree. Whatever happens, I just hope the board has the werewithal to make the right decision with some research to back up whatever they decide. First question: Should Pagan go? If yes: Find a suitable replacement, not just the first person lurking in the background who is cheap. If no: Start by getting Denis to earn his "marketing" money. That is a joke!

Author:	Synbad [ Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:39 am ]
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dannyboy wrote: no no verbs, whoever comes in will have the golden touch, course if they don't the its another 3 years and then this all starts again. I hate the idea we might sack Deni and replace him with Barry with no other process than - 'F@%&#! lets save our necks and get rid of Denis!' If the club wishes to sack Denis then do it! Seek the next appointment and choose the best. Otherwise shut the F@%&#! up, let him coach and either set the wheels in motion for next year or the year after. Let them get rid of Pagan .. replace him and then start with the board at election time.