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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:47 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:05 pm
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Did he?

Sounds like sour grapes from someone who had higher expectations.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:55 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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CK95 wrote:
We have 1 good young player who impressed in the 2s to bring in. Cowan.

This rebuild has not worked. Last night was the end result of it.

Sent from my Nokia G21 using Tapatalk


One rising star nomination in three and a half seasons

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 9:59 am 
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Bruce Doull
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carntheblues wrote:
Did he?

Sounds like sour grapes from someone who had higher expectations.
Oh the grapes are sour here, not denying that

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:20 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:31 pm
Posts: 898
If clubs are willing to pay TDK big money, extract a high pick for him and move on. He’s done nothing to show he’s worth the money being allegedly thrown at him. Not an effective first ruck of forward. Take the pick and move on.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 10:22 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 4299
Between SOS and Austin, thread should probably be renamed List Mismanagement.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:01 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:17 pm
Posts: 267
sos stuffed our club do people believe me now and Austin brings young and Acres F.....M.... and dodoro recruits caldwell,hobbs,Rookie martin all Aus, GONE


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:11 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 4299
SOS at least got our TPP under control. Under Austin we are now bursting at the seams.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:19 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
Posts: 6028
The club has no picks in the second and third round
Given the current course of events
Trade McKay Cripps and DeKoning
Yes you will partially pay the first twos contracts but at least with McGoverns contract finishing it frees up cap space
You should get 3 first rounders maybe a third rounder here and there that can be used in this years draft and in 2024
The Camporeale boys will be in the 2024 draft
With our a first rounders in 203 and 2024 that’s potentially 7 good kids who can grow with Hollands Binns Cowan
DeKoning lacks the physical presence to be a ruckman
Cripps deserves a change of scenery
McKay is not a smart footballer. Trade them
Whilst they have value
The club has done the opposite for 2 decades
Pay overs for overrated players
Time to do the opposite I love Cripps but the game has just an passed him by


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 2:24 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 1:40 pm
Posts: 3322
Well, with the season basically shot, the question is: Do we forge on this week and do the same again? Do we wait for the bye to re-set?

We have to find out if a large number of players are actually going to take us forward, so we might as well play them in the seniors for the remaining ten weeks and see.

On the fringe are:

Cunningham, Marchbank, Martin - can they play 10 weeks in a row? Can they find form and remind us of their value? They'd have to play out of their skins to survive the cut.

Fisher & Dow - play them as first-choice mids for the last 10 weeks. Either they come good and we keep them, they showcase their potential trade value or they prove they're not up to it and we can move them on.

Honey, O'Brien & Fogarty - same, but I doubt they'd have any trade value, so you might as well give them a solid block of games to have one last crack at the big time.

McGovern - I'm really not sure what to do with him. He's fit. He's not terrible. But he's also not actually much good... It almost depends what happens with others on the list as to whether he stays.

Plowman - play him (why not), then trade him for something. Anything. He's a solid contributor, but his time must be just about up, at least at the Blues.

TDK - Let him go for decent compensation. He'll be a good footballer, but he might not be what we need.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 3:15 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am
Posts: 539
Blue4ever wrote:
We are often getting more inside 50's than the opposition however we struggle to keep the ball inside our 50 and kick goals. A small/mid size that can apply heat in the contest and kick a goal would be exactly what we need. You'd be surprised how better the team would be if we could hold the ball in and kick a goal. It would actually give our defence an actual chance rather than the ball waltzing down the field where holes appear everywhere. Scoreboard pressure, it's all in the head.

I agree our entries and forward line connection is poor but we can't continue on relying Harry and Charlie to kick goals, we need other avenues, a small crafty forward would be a big start on winning more games.


billy_bongo wrote:
Parachuting a small forward into our mess of a forward line won't make any difference, even if you could find one. Lack of small forwards are not the root cause of our on-field problems. You need to start where the game begins - in the centre circle. Our on-ball brigade as a group are too slow, have poor disposal skills, organisation skills, basically are not in tune with the game (esp the modern game). We need to prune them right back and find other players who can run through the centre. Before today I would have said Cripps, Cerra and Walsh can form the base but Cripps played like a broken man today as he must be under enormous pressure so I would go Cerra, Kennedy and Walsh (for the remainder of this year) and hopefully we can add Dow (altho I'm not yet convinced) Cunningham (ditto) or even Kemp (wasn't he a mid as a youngster), while we look for a top flight on-baller (barge arses need not apply).

As for the coach he did a very good job last year with the players he was given but unfortunately since the Tiger juggernaut the game has changed with the emphasis on speed and run (which we are not equipped to play and cannot compete with the top teams, or even the bottom ones). He needs tactical support immediately.


WOW wrote:
Our biggest issues are pretty obvious. Lack of run and poor foot skills.


Yes, I know. That's what I just posted.


WOW wrote:
The mix of midfielders needs to change. Can’t have Cripps, Kennedy and Hewitt in same midfield. Two need to go. Need to find two quality inside/outside midfielders with good foot skills. Easier said than done. If you rely on draft, then you have to go back yo drawing board and accept another rebuild.


Yes, I know. That's what I just posted.
A partial rebuild perhaps.


WOW wrote:
The other glaring issue is the half back line. Need ball carriers. Saad is simply not enough. McGovern was to provide that skill set but is finished at this club. Also think Doherty is cooked. Hopefully Kemp continues to improve. Looked good at times last night.


Yes, agree. I've said in the past that the half back line is our most important line after the midfield. A team can win premierships from there (see 2012). The problem with Docherty is that he's been taken away from half back which is his best position - he can add run and transition. But I agree that he has seen better days due to the hardships he's pushed through. Yes, I like Kemp too -played ok yesterday. He could also be useful in positions other than the backs.


WOW wrote:
More avenues to goal is another key issue. Need to find a third marking option with pace. Martin won’t be that player. Our small forwards have been awful this year. Not sure what to do with Owies.


That'd be handy, of course but as I said above there's no use parachuting a player in while our and our midfield connection with the forward line is broken. We might get a gun third but will we kick it to him? We're so brainwashed into kicking it long and strong to our big forwards (even when they're not there) we don't see anyone else. Did you see Boyd against Dons - charging thru the wing, he's got a player on the 50 on his lonesome, but he goes for the high degree of difficulty over 50 mtres to a well-covered Harry, who, if he took the mark, would then start kacking his daks because he had to shoot for goal. This is a Carlton SOP for going forward. Any other team in the comp would have taken the lonesome guy (I forget who it was), who could then stroll in another 20 and have a ping.

As for the small forwards, that position is probably the most difficult to play. Add that to a dysfunctional forward line and the smalls lack of AFL experience, what do you expect? And then they spend time up field giving covering speed to our midfield or one of them will be standing all alone in the 50 with an opposition key backman. And there's no one to replace them.

WOW wrote:
As a minimum, get games into Cowans and Binns and start the process of regeneration.


Yes, with Dow and Cunningham worth a good look at.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:20 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
david31 wrote:
If clubs are willing to pay TDK big money, extract a high pick for him and move on. He’s done nothing to show he’s worth the money being allegedly thrown at him. Not an effective first ruck of forward. Take the pick and move on.



The thing about TDK, he's still young for a ruckman. Turns 24 next month

The reason why clubs are throwing big money at him has to be they can see his upside as he develops from a skinny wiry ruckman to a musclebound ruck in 2-3 years time, and likely to be in the game till he's 32-33, ie another 7-9 years.

IF, he has the upside we cant see.....we should consider the contract we offer very carefully

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:23 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Quote:
Carlton has been urged to convert its only top-50 draft pick into as many as four top-20 selections to regenerate its list and give coach Michael Voss the best chance to save his job next season.

The Blues hold picks No. 4, 58, 67 and 76 and have 17 players who fall out of contract with their finals hopes for 2023 almost extinguished after eight losses in nine games.

Rival clubs on Monday suggested the Blues should split No. 4 into two first-rounders, trade their future first-round pick into this year’s draft and possibly acquire a fourth early selection for Tom De Koning if he requests a trade to Geelong, St Kilda or Sydney.

Trading their future first-rounder would be wise because they will likely match bids for father-sons Ben and Lucas Camporeale next year.


Quote:
List expert Chris Pelchen endorsed the multiplying strategy overpackaging picks for a play at No. 1 Harley Reid because the Blues must plug several holes.

Pelchen was bullish on Carlton’s list, declaring it had more upside over the next five years than Geelong.

“Looking at the premier’s top end talent and comparing the two lists, Carlton have actually got the higher top end talent,” he said.

“People will say what about Paddy Dangerfield, Tom Hawkins, Tom Stewart and (Mark) Blicavs? No doubt that’s top-end talent.

“But look at the ages of those guys and in the next five years most of those players are going to be gone. That’s not the case for Carlton.

“There will be a lot of alarmists out there, but this list is in sound condition and can go forward quickly

“That’s why I think there’s more to it than a list issue – whether some of their players are carrying injuries or there’s an issue on game plan, I don’t know. But it goes deeper than the list.”


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/should-the-blues-go-big-in-2023-draft-to-rebuild-flailing-list/news-story/78e91c4fe22aa0904a00d23d4176a360

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:31 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:58 pm
Posts: 4299
Was just about to post that too Bondi. Certainly some merit there to get us 4 first rounders this year.


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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:33 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8486
Location: Australia
Agree, we should at least try for two top ten picks.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:47 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
Re: List Build

Given the changes in List under SOS & even Austin the 6-6-6 and stand on the mark has really changed the way the game is player over the last 2-3 years. Coaches like McRae have been quick to see this

SOS particularly built a list around contested/Stoppages as that was the game on a few years ago


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:50 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Quote:
BLUES' LIST STATE OF PLAY

DRAFT HAND No.4, 58, 67, 76
* Traded pick 22 for Jaxon Binns and pick 40 for Blake Acres last year; received pick 67 from Essendon* in Will Setterfield deal

OUT OF CONTRACT

Domanic Akuei — keep

Alex Cincotta — keep

David Cuningham — keep (need speed)

Ed Curnow — uncertain

Tom De Koning — attempt to keep (could request trade)

Paddy Dow — trade

Sam Durdin — delist (injury-prone)

Lachie Fogarty — uncertain

Josh Honey — keep

Brodie Kemp — keep

Lachie Plowman — delist

Caleb Marchbank — delist (injury-prone)

Mitch McGovern — trade or re-sign on less than $400,000 (on $800,000)

Nic Newman — keep

Hudson O’Keeffe — keep

Sam Philp — keep (need speed)

Jack Silvagni — keep (free agent, could leave if De Koning stays)


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/should-the-blues-go-big-in-2023-draft-to-rebuild-flailing-list/news-story/78e91c4fe22aa0904a00d23d4176a360

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:51 am 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2562
I wouldn’t split our first pick, especially if we continue to be as shit as we have been.

Next year’s first for sure, a first for TDK, great.

Get and get that first round pick off GC for points if we finish trading players for third and fourth round picks


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:55 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:10 am
Posts: 1495
bondiblue wrote:
Quote:
Carlton has been urged to convert its only top-50 draft pick into as many as four top-20 selections to regenerate its list and give coach Michael Voss the best chance to save his job next season.

The Blues hold picks No. 4, 58, 67 and 76 and have 17 players who fall out of contract with their finals hopes for 2023 almost extinguished after eight losses in nine games.

Rival clubs on Monday suggested the Blues should split No. 4 into two first-rounders, trade their future first-round pick into this year’s draft and possibly acquire a fourth early selection for Tom De Koning if he requests a trade to Geelong, St Kilda or Sydney.

Trading their future first-rounder would be wise because they will likely match bids for father-sons Ben and Lucas Camporeale next year.


Quote:
List expert Chris Pelchen endorsed the multiplying strategy overpackaging picks for a play at No. 1 Harley Reid because the Blues must plug several holes.

Pelchen was bullish on Carlton’s list, declaring it had more upside over the next five years than Geelong.

“Looking at the premier’s top end talent and comparing the two lists, Carlton have actually got the higher top end talent,” he said.

“People will say what about Paddy Dangerfield, Tom Hawkins, Tom Stewart and (Mark) Blicavs? No doubt that’s top-end talent.

“But look at the ages of those guys and in the next five years most of those players are going to be gone. That’s not the case for Carlton.

“There will be a lot of alarmists out there, but this list is in sound condition and can go forward quickly

“That’s why I think there’s more to it than a list issue – whether some of their players are carrying injuries or there’s an issue on game plan, I don’t know. But it goes deeper than the list.”


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/should-the-blues-go-big-in-2023-draft-to-rebuild-flailing-list/news-story/78e91c4fe22aa0904a00d23d4176a360



Couldn't agree more


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:55 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Quote:
Pelchen said Jacob Weitering and Charlie Curnow were among the game’s best bookends and Patrick Cripps, Sam Walsh and Adam Cerra led a midfield that was in the upper echelon.

“They’ve got the key building blocks to win a premiership,” Pelchen said.

“What they don‘t have is players who play on the periphery, and they’re generally utility players. They need more players, both forward and back, who unnerve or provide uncertainty to the opposition.

“Players who have a weapon in speed or kicking efficiency.”

Pelchen said Adam Saad ticked that box, but they needed a quarterback defender in Grant Birchall’s mould and multiple dynamic forwards such in the ilk of Cyril Rioli or Kysaiah Pickett.

“The issues that need correcting in my opinion are actually issues which other clubs already have strengths in,” he said.

“They’re the easiest to fix.


We are not that far off.

The Birchall type would be Marchbank, but he's injury prone.
The speed has been bought in with Saad Cerra Martin and Williams, but Williams is injured and Martin injury prone.

Then there's the game plan, and finishing off all the hard work when in front of the big sticks.

McKay has really let us down big time, and to a large degree so has Curnow and the small forwards.

Quote:
Leg speed has emerged as a key issue for the Blues and critics said they brought in George Hewett, Lachie Fogarty and Cerra having already seen that Cripps, Paddy Dow, Matthew Kennedy and Will Setterfield appeared too slow as a unit.

The need for speed could help David Cuningham survive.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:58 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Quote:
... injury-prone players Sam Durdin, Caleb Marchbank and McGovern face uphill battles along with the out-of-favour Dow.


Quote:
Sydney star Tom Papley’s trade request to Carlton failed in 2019 while Pelchen said free agent Jade Gresham (St Kilda) could be a target.


What does that say about the current lot of small forwards Motlop, Durdin, Owies and Fisher? Not quick enough?

Quote:
But Pelchen said the Blues had not got bang for buck for Mitch McGovern or Harry McKay and they faced tough decisions on both players, who are on about $800,000 this year.

McGovern falls out of contract while McKay’s salary will spike when his seven-year deal starts next season.

“They don’t give them enough for the talent they’ve had and the contracts they’ve demanded,” Pelchen said.

“Weitering and Curnow are players you can build a premiership around. So their second key position players (McGovern and McKay) both forward and back, they’re not getting a big enough return from for the investment.”


https://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/should-the-blues-go-big-in-2023-draft-to-rebuild-flailing-list/news-story/78e91c4fe22aa0904a00d23d4176a360

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