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Humpers
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:11 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm
Posts: 4914
Blueboy74 wrote:
What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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Blueboy74
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:12 am 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4580
Location: Blisstonia.
Just ignore the Sloane part....

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BigKev
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:47 am 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 5:52 pm
Posts: 2289
Location: Geelong
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


Good post BB74. Hawthorn and Geelong built dynastys via a strong core obtained mostly through the draft. I believe that this should be our direction. I hope we get 4 picks inside the top 30 and pick four kids. No trades, no packages of recycled players.
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Rexy
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:52 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Posts: 28227
With the public bashing we're getting at the moment I don't think we'll attract any decent mature aged players.

So, I reckon just turn our pick 1 into a couple of later first round picks and keep weeding out the list.
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bluegirl72
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:55 am 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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Posts: 23911
I think we are forgetting that our gone plaYers like Betts and WAite are doing way better at their new clubs...or perhaps are only given due respect once they leave Carlton? Hard to tell which, but probably a bit of both. We need the best player development and medical staff available. I'd be ploughing money into both areas.

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Braithy
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:20 am 
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Craig Bradley
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Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:42 pm
Posts: 6935
bluegirl72 wrote:
We need the best player development and medical staff available. I'd be ploughing money into both areas.



yes! the one area where there is no salary cap and we can excel at ... and instead we're cheap and cut corners*.







*if we are in fact not cheap and cutting corners, it's worse. it means we're incompetently hiring the wrong people
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The Normal One
 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:00 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 20076
Donstuie wrote:
Rexy wrote:

https://twitter.com/CarltonFC/status/1016218779938721792

We need to get this bloke in front of camera at EVERY opportunity.


When he is officially Captain next year, he will be.
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The Normal One
 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 20076
ColourMan wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Smithy, without looking at our list in detail, I would guess we would have approx. 30 players on our list that have been drafted as top 20 picks in previous national drafts. That is pure talent right there!


:lol:

Just because they are drafted early does not equate to pure talent/great footballer.

That's what separates the good list manager/recruiter from the not so good list manager/recruiter.

What makes it worse is when the same list manager/recruiter repeats the same mistake with the same footballers again, or with other early draftees that are unwanted (for very valid reasons) by their original clubs.


:yikes:

What makes you think that top picks aren’t the most gifted (pure talent) and great footballers (skilled) in the land at the time? What makes you believe that recruiters would take Eddie Curnow before a Charlie Curnow? They don’t!

Talented footballers are taken with higher picks every day of the week. Hard workers are taken with later picks. Unfortunately, when it comes to recruiting it really is that simple in terms of drafting.

SOS set out to bring the most talented footballers (high draft picks) ie. Garlett, Pickett, etc. he could to help build the list as quickly as possible. He succeeded. Fact.

Bolton needs to develop these talented footballers and needs to work with all their faults as much as their positives to make them succeed. SOS has succeeded, Bolton ....... time will tell but I’m not confident anymore.


:lol:

What rubbish, early picks have to be hard workers too!!

In his previous life, the list manager could make mistake after mistake after mistake... he had limitless first round selections for multiple drafts

O' Rourke - pick 2
Plowman - pick 3
Jaksck - pick 12

Yep, the most gifted and talented!!!

Plenty more examples, was Bolton at fault for Sumner's (pick 10) laziness too?

Pickett (pick 4) was contracted, yet GWS couldn't get him out the door fast enough... they saw him as lazy, unfit and uncoachable, they made that assessment after just 2 years, actually less than that!!!

It's also about work ethic, professionalism, and drive.... talent alone gets you nowhere.

Not one club would choose Pickett over Ronke

Our list is flowered, and that's on the list manager


How many games was Pickett not injured for in those two years?
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The Normal One
 Post subject: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:02 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:35 pm
Posts: 20076
ColourMan wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
SurreyBlue wrote:
Smithy, without looking at our list in detail, I would guess we would have approx. 30 players on our list that have been drafted as top 20 picks in previous national drafts. That is pure talent right there!


:lol:

Just because they are drafted early does not equate to pure talent/great footballer.

That's what separates the good list manager/recruiter from the not so good list manager/recruiter.

What makes it worse is when the same list manager/recruiter repeats the same mistake with the same footballers again, or with other early draftees that are unwanted (for very valid reasons) by their original clubs.


:yikes:

What makes you think that top picks aren’t the most gifted (pure talent) and great footballers (skilled) in the land at the time? What makes you believe that recruiters would take Eddie Curnow before a Charlie Curnow? They don’t!

Talented footballers are taken with higher picks every day of the week. Hard workers are taken with later picks. Unfortunately, when it comes to recruiting it really is that simple in terms of drafting.

SOS set out to bring the most talented footballers (high draft picks) ie. Garlett, Pickett, etc. he could to help build the list as quickly as possible. He succeeded. Fact.

Bolton needs to develop these talented footballers and needs to work with all their faults as much as their positives to make them succeed. SOS has succeeded, Bolton ....... time will tell but I’m not confident anymore.


:lol:

What rubbish, early picks have to be hard workers too!!

In his previous life, the list manager could make mistake after mistake after mistake... he had limitless first round selections for multiple drafts

O' Rourke - pick 2
Plowman - pick 3
Jaksck - pick 12

Yep, the most gifted and talented!!!

Plenty more examples, was Bolton at fault for Sumner's (pick 10) laziness too?

Pickett (pick 4) was contracted, yet GWS couldn't get him out the door fast enough... they saw him as lazy, unfit and uncoachable, they made that assessment after just 2 years, actually less than that!!!

It's also about work ethic, professionalism, and drive.... talent alone gets you nowhere.

Not one club would choose Pickett over Ronke

Our list is flowered, and that's on the list manager


How many games was Pickett not injured for in those two years?
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tap in 79
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:30 pm 
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Rod Ashman
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2005 10:58 am
Posts: 2129
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


Some good points here. I agree with your point on Adelaide. Their recruiting has been good considering their situation.

However, what A grade talent has Carlton gained from free agency?

Fact is A grade talent want to get to “destination clubs”. Last time I looked Carlton wasn’t a destination club. Personally, I don’t like free agency as it stands as I don’t believe it assists Carlton, but if it did I would be in favour of it.
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DesEnglish
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:18 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:10 pm
Posts: 2820
bluegirl72 wrote:
I think we are forgetting that our gone plaYers like Betts and WAite are doing way better at their new clubs...or perhaps are only given due respect once they leave Carlton? Hard to tell which, but probably a bit of both. We need the best player development and medical staff available. I'd be ploughing money into both areas.


Are we that bad we can’t attract medicos!!
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BIBI01
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:32 pm 
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Horrie Clover

Joined: Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:43 pm
Posts: 322
just need to convince their agents and they will come
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Blueboy74
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:41 pm 
Offline
Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:30 pm
Posts: 4580
Location: Blisstonia.
tap in 79 wrote:
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


Some good points here. I agree with your point on Adelaide. Their recruiting has been good considering their situation.

However, what A grade talent has Carlton gained from free agency?

Fact is A grade talent want to get to “destination clubs”. Last time I looked Carlton wasn’t a destination club. Personally, I don’t like free agency as it stands as I don’t believe it assists Carlton, but if it did I would be in favour of it.


Agree there are flaws in the system, just not on the advantage/disadvantage to one club per another.

Draft/Trade smart/Develop/Good coaching etc first.
Free Agency follows.

All clubs that are strong now have at times been rubbish in the last 20 years. They didn't just suddenly become a destination club without going through all of the hard ground work.

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Blue Vain
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 17959
Donstuie wrote:
What about Port Adelaide? They currently hold Pick 12 and 21 (insufficient for pick 1 of course), but also have young VIC blokes like Drew, Atley, Garner and Hayes who can't get a look in right now. Could a bulk deal (ala Plowman and co) for one of our 2nd rounders be worth considering?


Atley is an interesting one. Still uncontracted I believe. It would be nice if we offer PA peanuts or threaten to push him toward the Pre season draft.

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Adam Chatfield
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Melbourne
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


I agree we have just been inept in every way imaginable since at least post Ratten (and recruiting during his reign), and has led us to where we are now.
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Adam Chatfield
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:26 pm 
Offline
Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Melbourne
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Blueboy74 wrote:
tap in 79 wrote:
Braithy wrote:
i kinda cringe at that article that we're looking for stability right now.

i'm not sure we've ever had so much deadwood on our list as we do right now. it's also highly unbalanced, with more KPP's than we do mids, wings and small forwards.

to correct both of those, would take another massive list cull ... and this time instead of SOS picking the low hanging off fruit from GWS, we perhaps need to cast a wider net, yeah?


Surely what you are suggesting is way too revolutionary.
Are you seriously suggesting recruiting players outside GWS’s discards?

Interesting that West Coast since 2012 only ever lost 2 players to free agency-Lynch past his prime & Selwood - not a massive loss. Seems like strong clubs never really lose out in free agency. Will it change this year? Gaff?


What are you on about?

"Tier 1 clubs"

Hawthorn have lost Suckling, Ellis and Franklin gained Frawley and Vickery.

Geelong lost Ablett to a similar system that allowed him to walk to Gold Coast and Motlop, gained Dangerfield but were forced to trade a 1st and 2nd rounder for him etc.

Adelaide lose players every year, but usually are forced to trade. Sloane may be a free agency loss coming.

We have lost Betts and Waite and both could have been retained.

Do a free agency in and out so far for any club and not one has gained a significant advantage, or disadvantage.

STOP. BLAMING. THE. SYSTEM.


Some good points here. I agree with your point on Adelaide. Their recruiting has been good considering their situation.

However, what A grade talent has Carlton gained from free agency?

Fact is A grade talent want to get to “destination clubs”. Last time I looked Carlton wasn’t a destination club. Personally, I don’t like free agency as it stands as I don’t believe it assists Carlton, but if it did I would be in favour of it.


Agree there are flaws in the system, just not on the advantage/disadvantage to one club per another.

Draft/Trade smart/Develop/Good coaching etc first.
Free Agency follows.

All clubs that are strong now have at times been rubbish in the last 20 years. They didn't just suddenly become a destination club without going through all of the hard ground work.


Sydney are the only club who has managed to be constantly in the 8 for the whole period, only missing the finals once.

Hawthorn only missed twice since 07, but not much exciting before then.

Geelong been up or around the mark since 04.

Richmond generally average to rubbish until 2013.

Pies been average/below average from 2014-17 now having a good season.

We dug ourselves out of the first hole to become an average/above average side between 09-13, then through great ineptitude have got ourselves into an on field mess as bad as we were in 02-07. One could argue in terms of the playing list, its even worse than anytime in that period. Off field we are a lot more stable than back then thankfully.
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kezza
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:48 pm 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14940
Jon Ralph wrote a good article on the paper today.
Basically saying that the AFL has to do something to help the bottom clubs.
Mentions that the draft is broken because of free agency and players want to finish their careers at top clubs.
He gave an example of us finishing bottom and receiving pick 1 and our next picks in the low to mid 20's.
Then compared that to Richmond who may win the flag and get pick 18. Plus if they get Lynch they are effectively getting two extra first round picks because this would be the value of Lynch. This could mean that the equivalent of 3 first round picks.
It is broken, the AFL must know this.
What they do about it will be interesting.
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WOW
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:57 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 2033
kezza wrote:
Jon Ralph wrote a good article on the paper today.
Basically saying that the AFL has to do something to help the bottom clubs.
Mentions that the draft is broken because of free agency and players want to finish their careers at top clubs.
He gave an example of us finishing bottom and receiving pick 1 and our next picks in the low to mid 20's.
Then compared that to Richmond who may win the flag and get pick 18. Plus if they get Lynch they are effectively getting two extra first round picks because this would be the value of Lynch. This could mean that the equivalent of 3 first round picks.
It is broken, the AFL must know this.
What they do about it will be interesting.


It's broken because players have too much say in where they go

Trading restrictions are just as bad as the FA rules for lower placed teams
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Rexy
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:59 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Posts: 28227
The AFL should grow a pair and ban top 8 clubs from FA.
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kezza
 Post subject: Re: List Management 2018
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:05 pm 
Offline
Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14940
WOW wrote:
kezza wrote:
Jon Ralph wrote a good article on the paper today.
Basically saying that the AFL has to do something to help the bottom clubs.
Mentions that the draft is broken because of free agency and players want to finish their careers at top clubs.
He gave an example of us finishing bottom and receiving pick 1 and our next picks in the low to mid 20's.
Then compared that to Richmond who may win the flag and get pick 18. Plus if they get Lynch they are effectively getting two extra first round picks because this would be the value of Lynch. This could mean that the equivalent of 3 first round picks.
It is broken, the AFL must know this.
What they do about it will be interesting.


It's broken because players have too much say in where they go

Trading restrictions are just as bad as the FA rules for lower placed teams

True.
Players, contracted or not, seem to think they can just get to the club of their choice.
The thing is, they usually do.
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