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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:32 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:35 am
Posts: 19597
Location: 父 父 父 父 父 父
bondiblue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
Go back to the Dow Obrien draft if we would have packaged those 2 top 10 picks up for Toby or Papley or Charlie Cameron and offered ant them 7 years at 800k per year. You would have gone into meltdown.
But right now any of those 3 would be the difference between us sitting in the 8 and sitting 13th.
Would you have given up 2 top 10 picks for Half forward.

The draft is a lottery always has been always will be.

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Nice try
Maybe you just don’t get how important recruiting is
Is the draft a lottery
To an extent
But some recruiters like Stephen Wells are better at it than the likes of SOS
And you get players from those areas I
mentioned .
9 players played on average in Tiger Premiership teams coming from mid rookie preseason picks over 50
Go back over the last 8 years and have a look at our recruiting
It’s disgraceful
And what do we do
Sack coaches
With every loss when will it dawn on people that the recruiting philosophy has to change
Wells give me a break he was blessed with Father/Sons and traded his way to a flag.
If we traded away draft picks like he did you would be crying . 10 players who played in the grand final came from other clubs

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Your delusional now
Double your research
Look at Geelong as well
Scarlett, Hawkins Ablett yeah they were lucky there
Tel me about the draft of Enright
Milburn Harry Taylor Kelly Chapman( Michael Mansfield)
Seriously mate


Kerry Packer said the Channel 9 sale and buy back, making a cool Billion $, there's only one Bond in your lifetime, describing his luck.
Wells had his day in the sun. Things worked out right to create a golden era. Its not as easy as keogh thinks it is for every team to have the same luck and opportunity as Wells did.

Who is the best List Manager right this minute? Why?
What makes him more special than the circumstances enabling enabling him to make the choices you admire?
I really doubt there is that much between the top 20 prospects.

It's all about the club environment and system you bring them into.

It's a bit like your ATAR or folio in Year 12. Sure it means a lot for about a week and it's what you work towards, but it guarantees nothing at university or in your trade or in your career in general.

You are at the mercy of the lecturers you get, the university you go to, how hard you work, the people you get paired with for group activities, the apprenticeship you get, the first job site you get put on etc etc etc.

Walking into a club as pick 3 and thinking your job is done, or conversely the club that drafted you thinking 'he's a pick 3,he'll be fine' is like strolling into your first medical lecture or onto your first job site and going 'I know what I'm doing here, I got 99.95, I'm a sure thing'.

Our university staff are shit, because our university is shit.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:01 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:30 pm
Posts: 1638
Location: How blue do you do
Development. What do clubs such as Port Adelaide, Sydney, or Collingwood do for player development that Carlton don't?


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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 10:02 am 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Thu Apr 21, 2005 12:18 pm
Posts: 8483
Location: Australia
bluehammer wrote:
bondiblue wrote:
keogh wrote:
Sydney Blue wrote:
keogh wrote:
[quote="Sydney Blue"]Go back to the Dow Obrien draft if we would have packaged those 2 top 10 picks up for Toby or Papley or Charlie Cameron and offered ant them 7 years at 800k per year. You would have gone into meltdown.
But right now any of those 3 would be the difference between us sitting in the 8 and sitting 13th.
Would you have given up 2 top 10 picks for Half forward.

The draft is a lottery always has been always will be.

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk


Nice try
Maybe you just don’t get how important recruiting is
Is the draft a lottery
To an extent
But some recruiters like Stephen Wells are better at it than the likes of SOS
And you get players from those areas I
mentioned .
9 players played on average in Tiger Premiership teams coming from mid rookie preseason picks over 50
Go back over the last 8 years and have a look at our recruiting
It’s disgraceful
And what do we do
Sack coaches
With every loss when will it dawn on people that the recruiting philosophy has to change
Wells give me a break he was blessed with Father/Sons and traded his way to a flag.
If we traded away draft picks like he did you would be crying . 10 players who played in the grand final came from other clubs

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

Your delusional now
Double your research
Look at Geelong as well
Scarlett, Hawkins Ablett yeah they were lucky there
Tel me about the draft of Enright
Milburn Harry Taylor Kelly Chapman( Michael Mansfield)
Seriously mate


Kerry Packer said the Channel 9 sale and buy back, making a cool Billion $, there's only one Bond in your lifetime, describing his luck.
Wells had his day in the sun. Things worked out right to create a golden era. Its not as easy as keogh thinks it is for every team to have the same luck and opportunity as Wells did.

Who is the best List Manager right this minute? Why?
What makes him more special than the circumstances enabling enabling him to make the choices you admire?
I really doubt there is that much between the top 20 prospects.

It's all about the club environment and system you bring them into.

It's a bit like your ATAR or folio in Year 12. Sure it means a lot for about a week and it's what you work towards, but it guarantees nothing at university or in your trade or in your career in general.

You are at the mercy of the lecturers you get, the university you go to, how hard you work, the people you get paired with for group activities, the apprenticeship you get, the first job site you get put on etc etc etc.

Walking into a club as pick 3 and thinking your job is done, or conversely the club that drafted you thinking 'he's a pick 3,he'll be fine' is like strolling into your first medical lecture or onto your first job site and going 'I know what I'm doing here, I got 99.95, I'm a sure thing'.

Our university staff are shit, because our university is shit.[/quote]

…but our university is and old and prestigious one…


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:30 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:05 pm
Posts: 2456
[quote="frank dardew"]Development is the key
Walsh Weitering No brainers its get footballers with talent in and maximising their potential
We don’t do it we’ll Hawks Collingwood Geelong and Sydney do that’s why they have sustained success
The other key is to recruit durable players but also get those players on the park once again we don’t do that well[/quote]


I'm just not sure how you ensure the players you recruit are durable, especially from the draft. Is Docherty durable after 2 knee reconstructions and 2 stints on the sidelines due to cancer? That is the luck part. Surely you have to recruit the best players you think will benefit the team getting better and rely on fitness staff to get them and keep them fit. When Voss arrived I do not think our payers were fit enough play the way he wanted and as a result some players broke. I still see fitness as an issue. Into his second season hopefully the conditioning change is starting to impact the reliability and durability of the players but I still see them needing another preseason for a full assessment.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 4:15 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 3029
Always remember the number of conversations I’ve had with Peter Jackson over the years, I believe he did an excellent job at both the bummers and demons.
1) culture
2) development

Of course there is an exceptional handful in each draft, however the 2 principals are the points of difference.

Our list isn’t far off. There does seem to be something out of whack with our culture and development.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 6:56 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:38 pm
Posts: 7640
Docherty is durable and yes you can be unlucky with his 2 ACLs
Marchbank McGovern have been injured since under 18s and have never got on the park consistently at any level
McGovern was injury prone at Adelaide and in his early years
So I agree it isn’t 100 percent science nor foolproof but you might get an indication from injury history

Whilst Williams is a good player always been plagued by injuries too through this footballing career


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:06 pm 
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Robert Walls

Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm
Posts: 3029
frank dardew wrote:
Docherty is durable and yes you can be unlucky with his 2 ACLs
Marchbank McGovern have been injured since under 18s and have never got on the park consistently at any level
McGovern was injury prone at Adelaide and in his early years
So I agree it isn’t 100 percent science nor foolproof but you might get an indication from injury history

Whilst Williams is a good player always been plagued by injuries too through this footballing career

Good point Frank
The list has been challenged considerably by the consistent unavailability of 4 or 5 players, some with history


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2023 7:07 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10127
london blue wrote:
Always remember the number of conversations I’ve had with Peter Jackson over the years, I believe he did an excellent job at both the bummers and demons.
1) culture
2) development

Of course there is an exceptional handful in each draft, however the 2 principals are the points of difference.

Our list isn’t far off. There does seem to be something out of whack with our culture and development.


:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 8:31 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
Based on what I've seen to half time, Papley for TDK.
Papley for future 2nd, 3rd and Dow.

He would just lift the intensity.
Provide the energy.
Show a bit of mongrel and play his role for Carlton.
He has pace to burn.
Only half time....just sayin :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2023 10:08 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 2:15 pm
Posts: 20537
Location: North of the border
bondiblue wrote:
Based on what I've seen to half time, Papley for TDK.
Papley for future 2nd, 3rd and Dow.

He would just lift the intensity.
Provide the energy.
Show a bit of mongrel and play his role for Carlton.
He has pace to burn.
Only half time....just sayin :wink:
I'd give our first round and chuck in TDK aswell.
16 disposals 2 goals had a hand in two others in a losing side.

There was one section there we he went 4 times didn't record a stat but his pressure resulted in a mis kick and turnover

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 Post subject: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 12:45 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:06 pm
Posts: 34182
Location: Half back flank
Article about Port's list build

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/ ... T95ApEFLFg

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 1:02 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2021 2:17 pm
Posts: 267
thats what happens wen you draft well u become top 4 side like port , sps ,dow ,Lob all big F.....ure


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 4:11 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
jpulice1969 wrote:
thats what happens wen you draft well u become top 4 side like port , sps ,dow ,Lob all big F.....ure



How we phark up the top 10 picks is what gets me.

Dont tell me its all down to a development issue.

Maybe 10% is development. Good players just play good footy because they are good players; born footballers.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:01 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:32 am
Posts: 10127
How many in our current recruiting team are still there since the SoS or even pre SoS?


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 5:21 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 8:42 pm
Posts: 2383
Location: Princess Park
If Papley is no chance, I hope they look at Brent Daniels at GWS, not sure what his contract status is but he'a a good small forward who know hows to kick a goal.

I noticed Phillips at North was struggling for a game earlier this year however he has come back playing very good football, he'd be another good get as a small with good skills and footy nous. No chance unless they want TDK and he wants us.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 7:59 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:03 am
Posts: 23030
Location: Bondi Beach
DesEnglish wrote:
Can we turn Cowan into that Elliot Yeo type? Good size, good kick and hard.


He's got the foundation for the body type and he can run. He's a better kick than Yeo too. Faaaakn hell.
That's all that it takes, I believe, one tweak and it all lines up. Blue skies.

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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2023 9:42 pm 
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Bert Deacon

Joined: Wed Aug 24, 2005 4:44 am
Posts: 539
Blue4ever wrote:
If Papley is no chance, I hope they look at Brent Daniels at GWS, not sure what his contract status is but he'a a good small forward who know hows to kick a goal.


He's had a lot of injuries of late. Out at the moment - hamstring, somewhat serious.

Still, small forwards are the least of our problems. Sorting the midfield/forward line disconnect might be a start. Even that's not our root cause issue.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 6:59 am 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 1899
We appear to be heading towards a bottom four finish

This is staggering

Apart from West Coast and maybe GWS, every other side looks like they are progressing and have shown something positive this year

We are too reliant on our best players and have a massive hole with our list management

And yet we are still playing Ed Curnow

No idea what direction this club is taking, Makes no sense to me.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 7:35 am 
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Ken Hunter
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Posts: 12675
Location: Sydney
GWS are doing pretty well themselves, always competitive and developing a nice style.


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 Post subject: Re: List Management 2023
PostPosted: Sun Jun 11, 2023 8:48 am 
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Ken Hunter

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts: 14442
WOW wrote:
We appear to be heading towards a bottom four finish

This is staggering

Apart from West Coast and maybe GWS, every other side looks like they are progressing and have shown something positive this year

We are too reliant on our best players and have a massive hole with our list management

And yet we are still playing Ed Curnow

No idea what direction this club is taking, Makes no sense to me.

This is what makes this season even more depressing.
I watched the other games this weekend and other teams have a bunch of young players who look pretty good.
It is hard to find a handful of young players on our list to get excited about.
We are going nowhere at the moment and other teams have improved.
What a debacle this rebuild has turned out to be. Poor selections at the draft have really cost us any chance of becoming a top side.
It is so hard to believe we are in the situation we are in.


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