TalkingCarlton :: View topic - List Management 2023

let brian cook have complete autonomy over the club with no sandbagging from the ridiculous board who know jack shit about the actual game - let cook sack coaches, trade out players, bring in draft picks, trade back in players who are going to fit our dna moving forward and let cook create our identity.

Our recruiting is shit
Period

Draft is only a means of getting someone into your system.

Our system wouldn't let any talented draftee thrive

keogh wrote:

Our recruiting is shit
Period

i think we've recruited okay ... we haven't developed.

players go backwards under us, and that's it. Cripps the exception - but he's a self starter who never stops working (read: developing) on his own.

I hope we're looking at Leon Cameron. We're desperate for that senior assistant role. I'd like Adam Simpson, but seems like he's going to be paid 7 figures either to do nothing or even less, coach West Coast next year. Brendan McCartney want a change of pace from Melbourne maybe?

Draft is only a means of getting someone into your system.

Our system wouldn't let any talented draftee thrive

keogh wrote:

Sydney Blue wrote:

keogh wrote:

We need to trade out some players on big coin whilst they have currency
Over the next few years
Go back to the draft and get kids
The opposite to what we have done in the past
Before Tassie comes in
Our recruiting has to be good by Nick Austin
Otherwise we are stuffed
Happy to trade DeKoning
Think he is overrated and we could get a first rounder
I love Cripps but we need to trade and may get a first rounder
McKay as well
It’s obvious we have a navy team
Time to recognize the faults

You need to go back and look at what the last 20 or so premiers did.
Sure they built through the draft as we have but all have them brought in big money recruits and free agents.
We have been unlucky that McGovern Williams and Martin have been injured a lot

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

All premiership teams have had their beginnings at the draft. That’s where your base is.
I’m not against bringing in players from other clubs and giving away picks but only when your ready
If you go back to the McGovern and Setterfield trades we were coming off our worst ever season
Clearly SOS had stuffed too many picks up plus the spuds he had picked up from other clubs which he justified by saying you can’t just play kids.
Sam Mitchell and Hawthorn are trying to put a pin in the mythical philosophy .
Adding to this is this messiah approach which has been a cancer on this club

McGovern Williams Martin did not achieve enough at their previous clubs to warrant their pay packets
McKay has one good season then is given an eight year mega contract

At what point does the club realise it ain’t the coach that’s the problem. it’s List Management and an underlying environment of overrating players

Signing Pittonet and Young on long term cheap deals just compounds the problem
Other clubs like Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney are going past us
Even North look reasonable
They have some good kids

Carlton’s problem lies in its past
A club that demanded success
In too much of a rush for success
Overrating the spectacular

Do this in today’s footy environment and your in massive trouble

Voss needs a tactical hand and a harder edge with his assistance .
No doubt
But it’s List Management and the club’s underlying culture that’s the core of its problems

Melbourne said we won't get Lever May Brown we will go to draft.
Richmond said we won't get Lynch Prestia Nank we will go to draft
Geelong said we won't get Danger Cameron Rohan Stewart Touhy Stengle we will go to the draft

You are either clueless or just like arguments for arguments sake.

Martin McGovern and Williams back fired.
It happens

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

Hey, really enjoyed the debate.

There's no right or wrong.

There's mistakes and bad luck, and we've copped the bad end.
May turn around, sooner that we think, maybe too late for this year, but you never know.

No doubt this next List selection period will be huge.

Sydney Blue wrote:

keogh wrote:

Sydney Blue wrote:

Go back to the Dow Obrien draft if we would have packaged those 2 top 10 picks up for Toby or Papley or Charlie Cameron and offered ant them 7 years at 800k per year. You would have gone into meltdown.
But right now any of those 3 would be the difference between us sitting in the 8 and sitting 13th.
Would you have given up 2 top 10 picks for Half forward.

The draft is a lottery always has been always will be.

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

Nice try
Maybe you just don’t get how important recruiting is
Is the draft a lottery
To an extent
But some recruiters like Stephen Wells are better at it than the likes of SOS
And you get players from those areas I
mentioned .
9 players played on average in Tiger Premiership teams coming from mid rookie preseason picks over 50
Go back over the last 8 years and have a look at our recruiting
It’s disgraceful
And what do we do
Sack coaches
With every loss when will it dawn on people that the recruiting philosophy has to change

Wells give me a break he was blessed with Father/Sons and traded his way to a flag.
If we traded away draft picks like he did you would be crying . 10 players who played in the grand final came from other clubs

Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk

Your delusional now
Double your research
Look at Geelong as well
Scarlett, Hawkins Ablett yeah they were lucky there
Tel me about the draft of Enright
Milburn Harry Taylor Kelly Chapman( Michael Mansfield)
Seriously mate

Author:	CK95 [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:21 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Braithy wrote: let brian cook have complete autonomy over the club with no sandbagging from the ridiculous board who know jack shit about the actual game - let cook sack coaches, trade out players, bring in draft picks, trade back in players who are going to fit our dna moving forward and let cook create our identity. I agree with your sentiment Braithy but I hope Cook learns from his time at Geelong, & keeps Voss, & gets him more & better support. Like he did when they nearly sacked Thompson.

Author:	Braithy [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:29 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
keogh wrote: Our recruiting is shit Period i think we've recruited okay ... we haven't developed. players go backwards under us, and that's it. Cripps the exception - but he's a self starter who never stops working (read: developing) on his own.

Author:	WOW [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:32 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
bluehammer wrote: Draft is only a means of getting someone into your system. Our system wouldn't let any talented draftee thrive Good point I don’t subscribe to the theory that our issues only relate to recruiting or game plan or player development. It’s all of the above and then some. For me, the biggest issue is our losing culture, which has been entrenched for over 20 years. Our leaders have only known defeat and eventually catches up with you. Cripps and Doherty look defeated to me.

Author:	jpulice1969 [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
sos poor recruiting has really stuffed the club ,i understand u may miss a selection but how many did he get wrong thats my view. Now Austin chooses Acres and a freo supporter said before we signed him ,that he is a turnover king ,just kicks the long bombs a f.....k supporter said this but our recruiters never saw it.

Author:	FarmerBlue [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 2:56 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Can turn it quickly with a good trade/draft period and some good development into our younger players 2024 B: Boyd Young Kemp HB: Williams Weitering Saad C: Acres Cripps Hollands HF: Martin McKay Gresham F: Owies Lemmey Charlie Foll: Pittonet Cerra Walsh Int: Docherty Hewett Kennedy Binns Motlop Durdin Cowan Jordan Flanders Bergman Picks 8, 18, 35, 40, 66

TalkingCarlton http://www.talkingcarlton.com/phpBB3/

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Author:	CK95 [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 5:12 pm ]
Post subject:	List Management 2023
Is there a question mark over his kicking? Does he get regularly injured? If the answer to one or both of those questions is yes, we should not recruit them. Draft or trade. Sent from my Nokia G21 using Tapatalk

Author:	frank dardew [ Sat Jun 03, 2023 6:38 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Who are you talking about CK -presumably you are not talking about whole team but obviously it does apply

Author:	CK95 [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 9:55 am ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
We're gonna have to start learning our lessons one day Frank

Author:	SurreyBlue [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 10:39 am ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Braithy wrote: keogh wrote: Our recruiting is shit Period i think we've recruited okay ... we haven't developed. players go backwards under us, and that's it. Cripps the exception - but he's a self starter who never stops working (read: developing) on his own. Exactly. Even at this moment with injuries, you can see the depth and talent is there.

Author:	frank dardew [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 11:15 am ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Development is the key Walsh Weitering No brainers its get footballers with talent in and maximising their potential We don’t do it we’ll Hawks Collingwood Geelong and Sydney do that’s why they have sustained success The other key is to recruit durable players but also get those players on the park once again we don’t do that well

Author:	Rod Spooky Galt [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 12:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
I hope we're looking at Leon Cameron. We're desperate for that senior assistant role. I'd like Adam Simpson, but seems like he's going to be paid 7 figures either to do nothing or even less, coach West Coast next year. Brendan McCartney want a change of pace from Melbourne maybe?

Author:	Mickstar [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Rod Spooky Galt wrote: I hope we're looking at Leon Cameron. We're desperate for that senior assistant role. I'd like Adam Simpson, but seems like he's going to be paid 7 figures either to do nothing or even less, coach West Coast next year. Brendan McCartney want a change of pace from Melbourne maybe? Yeah . Would you consider Ratts ? i reckon he could be the all-round good guy . The perfect good cop bad cop to Voss . PS i know i have shit canned Voss but i haven't given him away . Just put him on notice . Pull ya faaarkin socks up Vossie .

Author:	Rod Spooky Galt [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
In the current context - he's untenable. With the right assistants around him, he's as good as anyone around. He needs a sounding board, and I suspect there's no-one there at the moment calling him on his bullshit.

Author:	bondiblue [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
bluehammer wrote: Draft is only a means of getting someone into your system. Our system wouldn't let any talented draftee thrive Its as simple as that. We are regulated to take a minimum 3 picks, includes rookie upgrades, every year. If you get 3 picks two years running right, and they come on quick, there's a new 3rd of a team to bolt on to what you have. If you had a list with 15 good players then the reset can bring success pretty quick.

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Author:	bondiblue [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Rod Spooky Galt wrote: I hope we're looking at Leon Cameron. We're desperate for that senior assistant role. I'd like Adam Simpson, but seems like he's going to be paid 7 figures either to do nothing or even less, coach West Coast next year. Brendan McCartney want a change of pace from Melbourne maybe? Great thinking Galty. Leon Cameron has a cushy job heading the Swans Academy. and his salary is not under the soft cap. I think his kids have grown use to Sydney. Worth a try

Author:	bondiblue [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:02 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Sydney Blue wrote: keogh wrote: Sydney Blue wrote: keogh wrote: We need to trade out some players on big coin whilst they have currency Over the next few years Go back to the draft and get kids The opposite to what we have done in the past Before Tassie comes in Our recruiting has to be good by Nick Austin Otherwise we are stuffed Happy to trade DeKoning Think he is overrated and we could get a first rounder I love Cripps but we need to trade and may get a first rounder McKay as well It’s obvious we have a navy team Time to recognize the faults You need to go back and look at what the last 20 or so premiers did. Sure they built through the draft as we have but all have them brought in big money recruits and free agents. We have been unlucky that McGovern Williams and Martin have been injured a lot Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk All premiership teams have had their beginnings at the draft. That’s where your base is. I’m not against bringing in players from other clubs and giving away picks but only when your ready If you go back to the McGovern and Setterfield trades we were coming off our worst ever season Clearly SOS had stuffed too many picks up plus the spuds he had picked up from other clubs which he justified by saying you can’t just play kids. Sam Mitchell and Hawthorn are trying to put a pin in the mythical philosophy . Adding to this is this messiah approach which has been a cancer on this club McGovern Williams Martin did not achieve enough at their previous clubs to warrant their pay packets McKay has one good season then is given an eight year mega contract At what point does the club realise it ain’t the coach that’s the problem. it’s List Management and an underlying environment of overrating players Signing Pittonet and Young on long term cheap deals just compounds the problem Other clubs like Gold Coast and Greater Western Sydney are going past us Even North look reasonable They have some good kids Carlton’s problem lies in its past A club that demanded success In too much of a rush for success Overrating the spectacular Do this in today’s footy environment and your in massive trouble Voss needs a tactical hand and a harder edge with his assistance . No doubt But it’s List Management and the club’s underlying culture that’s the core of its problems Melbourne said we won't get Lever May Brown we will go to draft. Richmond said we won't get Lynch Prestia Nank we will go to draft Geelong said we won't get Danger Cameron Rohan Stewart Touhy Stengle we will go to the draft You are either clueless or just like arguments for arguments sake. Martin McGovern and Williams back fired. It happens Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk I'm with you on this Sydney. Its a bit of both, drafting and trading....a Cat B success is always welcome. I get keoghs good pointd but I cant agree with all of it. Keogh's position is ambiguous, Trade, but go to the draft, then trade. You need assetts to trade. There's no guarantees We took it for granted there would be pain stripping back the list. We're making money these days but its the soft cap constrictions (money for development) that is hurting us imo. Get the best people. Pay the penalty if we go over the soft cap. Just do it. Come on Gil, get on with it.

Author:	bondiblue [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:05 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Hey, really enjoyed the debate. There's no right or wrong. There's mistakes and bad luck, and we've copped the bad end. May turn around, sooner that we think, maybe too late for this year, but you never know. No doubt this next List selection period will be huge.

Author:	Mickstar [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
bondiblue wrote: Hey, really enjoyed the debate. There's no right or wrong. There's mistakes and bad luck, and we've copped the bad end. May turn around, sooner that we think, maybe too late for this year, but you never know. No doubt this next List selection period will be huge. Faaark . Aint that the truth . No right or wrong .

Author:	bondiblue [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
keogh wrote: Sydney Blue wrote: keogh wrote: Sydney Blue wrote: Go back to the Dow Obrien draft if we would have packaged those 2 top 10 picks up for Toby or Papley or Charlie Cameron and offered ant them 7 years at 800k per year. You would have gone into meltdown. But right now any of those 3 would be the difference between us sitting in the 8 and sitting 13th. Would you have given up 2 top 10 picks for Half forward. The draft is a lottery always has been always will be. Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk Nice try Maybe you just don’t get how important recruiting is Is the draft a lottery To an extent But some recruiters like Stephen Wells are better at it than the likes of SOS And you get players from those areas I mentioned . 9 players played on average in Tiger Premiership teams coming from mid rookie preseason picks over 50 Go back over the last 8 years and have a look at our recruiting It’s disgraceful And what do we do Sack coaches With every loss when will it dawn on people that the recruiting philosophy has to change Wells give me a break he was blessed with Father/Sons and traded his way to a flag. If we traded away draft picks like he did you would be crying . 10 players who played in the grand final came from other clubs Sent from my SM-F926B using Tapatalk Your delusional now Double your research Look at Geelong as well Scarlett, Hawkins Ablett yeah they were lucky there Tel me about the draft of Enright Milburn Harry Taylor Kelly Chapman( Michael Mansfield) Seriously mate Kerry Packer said the Channel 9 sale and buy back, making a cool Billion $, there's only one Bond in your lifetime, describing his luck. Wells had his day in the sun. Things worked out right to create a golden era. Its not as easy as keogh thinks it is for every team to have the same luck and opportunity as Wells did. Who is the best List Manager right this minute? Why? What makes him more special than the circumstances enabling enabling him to make the choices you admire?

Author:	DesEnglish [ Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: List Management 2023
Can we turn Cowan into that Elliot Yeo type? Good size, good kick and hard.