Rod, IMO Setanta has already done what he can do in the VFL. For this experiment to work, Setanta needs to learn the game now at AFL level. He needs to be played week in week out for his development, for Setanta to get better he need to play on and learn from better players and he ain't going to get that in the VFL.

You been drinking your own bath water have you Syn??

It's not his fault Footy isn't his national game and therefore he hasn't made it. How many of us had footy as our first game and we can't play well enough to make it either.
There is no harm in trying to think outside the square but seriously..... THE BOY is a long long long long way off!

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Stay tuned We're in for a BUMPY ride

RUSSELL should stay to build up confidence - will be a good player
KENNEDY should come in and NOT be dropped regardless like Murph
CARLOS should go back to Ireland won't make it(1st time that i'm admitting i'm wrong)
TEAGUE finish his contract at the Ants (it's said seeing his dimise)
KOUTA should retire and make Stevens Capt Immediatey

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BOWER TO MURPHY TO JUDD GOAL !!!
BRING IT ON
mens sana in corpore sano : a sound mind in a sound body

agree with everything except this .. lance should be captain before stevens, last night was a good example why ..

lance stood up and did his best .. stevo racked up possessions but had no real impact .. nothing inspirational .. handball receives and sideways chips

lance took some contested marks even when outmanned .. and actually looked like keeping us in the game

lance before stevo

(tho i would prefer jarad waite become captain anyways)


.. go blues ..

I was impressed with Russell's attack on the footy last night. He really does some of the one-percenters well. Too bad he didn't get more of the ball.

As for the question of whether we should drop Russell and O'hAilpin two questions have to be asked:

-Will their replacements will be far superior player who'll add significantly more the side?

Russell: No
O'hAilpin: Yes (Fevola, Waite)

-Will they gain far more from playing a full game in the twos learning their trade, and maybe gaining a bit of confidence, than they would by playing in the seniors running off the bench?

-Russell: ????
-O'hAilpin: Yes

So O'hAilpin is a definate out for me while I'm not really certain about Russell.

Carlos did struggle last night but I believe he has a lot more room for improvement than DeLuca. DeLuca is totally one dimensional and the only reason he has racked up stats in the last 2 weeks is because Waite has been out of the team. DeLuca has been used as the link man in Waite's absence but the problem with that is that if he does happen to take a mark he then wheels around on his left and pops it up in the air. Absolutely no penetration in his kicking.

On the other hand, if he drops the mark it's an automatic turnover because he can't butter up. Plus his ruck work is average at best.

Carlos can mark and chase and apply physical pressure. The problem he is having is where to position himself which takes time to learn. If we persist with him, it will pay off.

Same with JR, he's young and needs time to adapt to the pace and physicality of league footy. As others have pointed out, look at the improvement we've seen in Simmo.

I don't like losing or witnessing the performance that we put in last night, but what I hate more is players being written off before they've had a real opportunity to prove themselves.

Rod's nailed the key point. As much as we would all rotate DeLuca out of out teams, Pagan seems completely in awe of DeLuca and has given him so much latitude thus far that he's not going to drop him once he starts getting touches. If he didn't get dropped after round 1, he won't get dropped after round 4.

The real issue here is the inconceivable and performance-disruptive love for DeLuca that Pagan has.

We've become a bit like Essendon* circa 96-98.... Sheedy had is little favourites and played them all the time... guys like michael symons etc... guys who were just shit but played 5 good minutes every 10 weeks and kept getting picked.... it was only until Sheedy realised his lovechildren were actually shit that they started improving.

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Love Cricket? Love me

After sifting through a lot of shit in here here are my humble thoughts.
While Setanta might not have had a great game, you dont go from impressing people to being put on a plane home after 4QTRs. I think it's possible, for the most part that VFL has taken Setanta as far as he can go, he is in the comfort zone and can sometimes look the real deal. However, if he was having to stretch himself at AFL level with FEV Lance and Kouta in his ear telling him what he should be doing and how he should be doing it, I think you might see a significant improvement in him as he is pushing himself and being pushed further by those around him, surely people have experience in here of playing at one level, improving and hitting the roof, when you play with better players, you become a better player.

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'Cause I'm J.U.D.D
I'm dynamite
J.U.D.D
And I'll win that fight
J.U.D.D
I'm a power load
J.U.D.D, Watch me explode

I'd actually persist with Setanta if not for the fact that someone has to make way for Fev, and as forward is the only place Carlos can play he draws the short straw.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

Playing as a forward within our game plan is very difficult and that's why Setanta needs to be developed as a key back after all regardless how good he becomes can he play forward with Fev, Fisher, Kennedy, Waite - no he will never be able to compete with those players. Setanta must play back, he seemed completely lost as a forward making play however he competed fairly well when th eball was on the ground. I recall an incident where he dived on the ball from behind his player to feed the ball out to a team mate.

Setanta should return to the Ants as a back and I'm sure he will be back before the year is out - after all didn't Pagan sya we have the forwards and we need backs then why not develop him as a back?

Russells form in the Ants and in the pre season wasn't good however I believe he showed more (only a little) than he has in any other game this year. Should be kept in the side to develop.

re deluca - even the triple M commentators were making fun saying the opposition were not concern about Deluca's possessions b/c they know he will do nothing with it. When comments like that is made from the media, you know that there may be some merits in the views expressed in this forum.

re Setanta - I remember I watched some of Kouta's first games and told everyone under the sun that he is @#$@ and will never make it. boy was I wrong to judge so early! So I'll reserve my judgement on Setanta for now. but i like the idea of playing him on the wing. interesting idea. he might be able to play more creatively and use his height and pace to his advantage. similar to embley at WC.

re Russell - too early to call. but good efforts each time he is near the ball. should be given a chance. replace Teague with Russell. Give Russell a chance to see if he can cut it.

special mention to Walker - really doing well. BUT must continue to work on his disposals.

wouldnt concern myself too much with a lot of the overreaction on these boards. Setanta is clearly not ready however he is still able to show signs of being able to contribute. Did some good work causing a turnover on the wing and one in the forward line that resulted in a goal and also had a shot on goal. If he had kicked straight that would have meant he 'contributed' 2 goals to the team in a low scoring game. Long term, I'd be happy with a 3rd/4th forward (dont think he will be #1/#2 due to what we have atm - fev, whitnall, waite, fisher, kennedy) that could consistently contribute 2 goals/game to the team. Still early days yet though so long as he is realistic about it and has the right people in his ear (ie reinforcing what he did right rather than what he didnt do) he should be well satisfied with his game. He is still a long way off though and probably needs a bit more time in the seconds for mine - either that or time up forward with whitnall directing him. I'd prefer the latter option however cant see the second happening atm

In the post match interview on Ch 9, Pagan was asked if there was something wrong with Kouta, and he replied that Kouta was sick and they did not know if he was going to play or not until 4:00 pm, and that it was a great effort for him to get out and play as well as he did.

Now the conspiracy theorists may like to think that Pagan was just covering up for PR purposes ... however I think some people are going overboard in saying he should give up based upon that game.

JR was not disappointing, he has had another taste and a few stats. Tough call whether to leave him in or not ... Setanta tried hard but needs more time. Hard to keep him there with Waite and Fev to come back.

heady, there were reports before the game that Kouta might not play due to a virus, so I doubt it's a cover up...

same here steve.

Stick to dancing Molly and leave the footy to us men.

So this is your arguement:

Santi is still very green - he's only been here 2.5 years and it took a great like Stynes 5 yrs to make it
He's been carrying an injury
He's not really fit
And the coaching staff say (after the game) he's not really ready.

So why do we pick him? Oh that's right - we didn't have anyone else. Do you mean we don't have anyone on our list who's played the game for more than 3 yrs, who hasn't been carrying injuries and who is fit?

Anyone would have been better. Wiggins, Prenda, Livo, Sporn for example. You should stop listening to Den's after-game get outs.

I reckon Setanta could be a good match up for a guy like Stafford.

I reckon if we're picking Setanta, it should be as a utility, probably coming off the bench, to fill a spot forward or back, where ever a 200cm strongman who can run like the wind is needed.

Next week, Thornton could get Richardson, Simmonds is a perfect get for Whitnall and Setanta on Stafford (if he plays... he did tonight). Saddo's there for a smaller 3rd tall option.

The thing about "development" is that sometimes you have to give them, as Molsey would put it, "stretch targets"..... some of you might (inconceivably) say "but Stafford would kill Setanta".... but its the best place for him to learn..... and, to be honest, Stafford isn't Anthony Rocca.

IN: Fevola, Waite
OUT: Teague...... and... well... if we're committing to Setanta.. all roads point to DeLuca

and thats a good result for the team.

Guys like Bannister... well, they might play well in the reserves, but they're still a bit of a step backwards, so to get in they'd want to tear it up in the reserves for a few weeks to force their way in.... AND we're proposing he play in the same spot Russell should be playing in.

Russell would be a good match up for a guy like Tambling.

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Love Cricket? Love me

so what you're saying (and I bet Synbad loves your sandwich) is forget this year in terms of win/losses. Play the kids all the time (ala hawks last year) and just get games into them, fast track their learning, take a punt. If Setanata doesn't make it we just grab another kid - say Raso, fast track him. If JR doesn't make it, grab say Raso fast track him for a year...etc.

The Hawks did not inspire me 1 iota on friday night. In fcat I still believe with Fev and Waite we would have won.


I like how AB was handled, Simmo too. Have not got a problem with Delucas efforts so far this season and can't wait til we get Josh in there (when fit)
while Santy competed very well and JR did a couple of nice things, I would prefer to try and win and use Mitchell in the bullies to continue to devlop them while every now and then giving them a go in the seniors.

Go your way and I cannot see how we can hold anyone accountable (think grant Thomas) until say the year 2012. By which time I fear we may be barracking for The Bullies and not much else.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

But the argument your making, as I see it, is that picking someone like Bannister rather than O'hAilpin (for example)... or a Chambers over a Russell is going to increase our chances of victory....

I just don't see it. I think that argument would hold up if we were Brisbane and talking about picking Russell ahead of a Chris or Brad Scott (guys who are/were actually good players)... but Chambers, Bannister, DeLuca etc are the bottom of the barrel. In other words, they're just not good players.... and being in their mid 20s can't mask that. I think a kid with more talent in his index finger wouldn't take long to be able to match them on the park.

Bentick and Simpson are going well now, so we can point to "successes" in development there..... but how many matches did the seniors win in that time???

Its not a matter of deciding to either win or develop. We're not winning because the ready-matess are not good players. We can let Russell and O'hAilpin, or a Kennedy play 2 seasons in the reserves.... but we'll still be losing.

And yes, I believe that playing seniors is a better learning experience than the reserves.

Hawthorn might not have been great on friday night... but what will they be like in 2 seasons time? Ok, now what will they be like in that 2 years time if Hay, Thompson, Tallis and Holland were playing on friday night instead of Roughead, or even "Dolecheck" Dawson.

Zac Dawson might become the worst player of all time, but at least Hawthorn have given him a chance to prove them wrong.......

..... like we're doing with DeLuca!

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Love Cricket? Love me

I don't like seeing players being dropped after only one game in.

One game is not a long enough time to judge a players worth to the senior team.

The team would be much better off keeping these guys in the twos rather than giving them one game stints.

You don't see too many 200 game players out there who were given lots of one game stints early in their development.

There is a good chance that Russell and O'hAilpin will both have a record of two games and twice being dropped from the team.

If that gets to a stage where these players have done another 2 or 3 of these one game stints before the seasons end then I reckon that puts their development back rather than progress it.

If we are going to use fill-ins for one game we are better off using more mature players.

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