you're right though CG

no ex-carlton players knows anything about anything.

some on here though know everything.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Brown & Mitchell in particular have been absolutely crucified.

What have they done to deserve this treatment?

Mitchell has done his job brilliantly, gotten results & is respected by the players.
He has done his apprenticeship and is ready to coach. But it seems we will now lose him. Rediculous!

Brown stepped up and put his money where his mouth is. Ratts Deany & Braddles (who were no slouches on the field don't you think) put their hands up to start their assistant coaching careers. Highly qualified Id've thought.

What was the problem???????

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There's so much I could say...

Just read the fraser brown article… seems he and his mates that didn’t like being told to pull their heads in are just looking for jobs/revenge.

The “carlton feelingâ€

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Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do.

Mel, Frasers not in the financial way he is now as a result of Carlton.

His family and latterly he himself have done very well with their business dealings in earthmoving, property development and waste management etc.

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This might sound extreme in the context of alleged sexual assault, drunken violence and a drug trafficking charge...

Yes and no - certainly he's where he is as a result of hard work and shrewd decisions, but he used the capital and notoriety he gained at carlton to get his foot in the door and make contacts and deals that joe bloggs wouldn’t have been able to – all credit to him he’s done very well…. But in part its because of how well he was looked after when he was here

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Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do.

It might pay to get the facts straight before laying the boots in Mel.
His family business was flourishing before he came to Carlton.

As for your thoughts about Walker, Whitnall and Fisher, you're looking at different players to me. They were all quality players the minute they pulled on Navy Blue jumpers as their debut games suggested.
To suggest 10 times improvement is laughable IMHO.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

And futher to that BV, I suggest that there may have been some improvent in some individuals (eg Simmo), but as a TEAM we have not progessed at all. Pagan has had 3 years to prove his worth.... now it's time for him to go.

Melbelle 39, you put up a good argument. I'm not a Pagan hater, but on the flip side of your argument I would be questioning whether you're handing all the accolades to Pagan on a silver platter.

Let me look at alternatives

melbelle wrote



Fevola and Whitnall were up for trade to Richmond and Melbourne by Pagan

Andrew Walker was drafted at #2 as an 18 yo, surely you'd expect him to be good by the time he's 20. Question though, should he have been better than he is at 20?

Simpson, Thornton and Fisher have made good progress themselves perhaps. Why can't Fisher kick straight after 3 years with Pagan?



Ratten, Bradley didn't believe his kick it long and crash bang style of game plan was what Carlton needed. Surely successful players who know the game, and are on the field playing against the modern fast running game are allowed to have some input as senior players who have only played for (one) our club.



Do you know that Ratten and Dean don't have the credentials and make up to be good modern day coaches? I think that they would, and at the very least make good assistant coaches. Other AFL teams think so too.



Fair enough point on the whole, but we don't know if he was a key influencer in a dictatorial style of Presidency. I'm sure he has learned from their mistakes. There must be a good reason why he is the only survivor from that dynasty...he's a football man on the board, and a link to the players.



The reason he has put up $600K from what we are led to believe, is he put it towards something he believed in. Probably for the same reason we can't attract big corporate sponsors...they don't believe in the board...and it is a waste to throw good money at bad money.



We all are. But out of all this, at least some of the facts are surfassing, that helps make us the wiser re our football club. Also gives us hope that we will breed a culture and realisation that the club is bigger than the individual. There are alternatives out there to replace any complacent servants to the club who hold highly regarded positions of responsibility.

Remember that the media and football community are taking every opportunity to take pot shots at us and knock us down when they can, to vent their past frustrations with the Carlton powerhouse that brought them and their teams such misery. They are taking this opportunity whilst they can, because they know that we'll be back to haunt them.

Just keep the faith that we'll have our day in the not too distant future. Just keep looking at the kids we've got aplenty, and they will serve us well for a decade. Pagan or no Pagan, they are going to make it happen. They are pure elite talent.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

whats the name of Browns company???

Anyone?

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Supporting the Blues No Matter What

not saying that there arent problems but I think the coach as scape goat is simplistic and not helpful.

The playing group as a whole has improved - threee years ago we were getting thrashed week in, week out - now we've been thrashed a few times this year, but oveerall our performance has improved - but realisitically this list is still too young and under developed to play out 4 solid quarters - but they're getting there
.

I'm not saying that ratten etc wouldnt make good coaches, but as a general rule I beleive that any player should serve their apprentice at another club before taking over the reigns or senior roles at their old club - it does them and the club alot of good to experience another culture

I wasnt labelling ratten selfish - I was talking more about the likes of murphy, allan, beaumont etc... who I was happy to see the back of.

Fevola and Lance were up fpr trade but I think the turn around is a credit to both them and teh coaching staff, that they have all been able to move on and grow from the situation.

Maybe if walker was in a team surrounded by experienced players that could back him up he would be a better player, but thats not the case, and ultimately part of the problem - the young developing players dont have the security of an older established bunch on field to protect and guide them... walker is mouch tougher and more mature on field... compare him to kouta at 20... he's already streets ahead of someone many beleive to be one of our best ever players

kernahan is still on the board becuase the average supporter cant separate head from heart - they look at him and see the player not the coach or administrator.

i'm not saying that pagan doesnt have work to do - but I think that its ridiculous to be calling for his head because we havent had an instantaneous result, it takes tiem to rebuild a list from scratch and develop a strong playing group - I think the next two years will eb very telling, but beleive that pagan has earned the right to follow through with what he started.


I have faith, I'm prepared to wait - I'm just reluctant to see the baby go out with the bath water.

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Those of you who think you know everything are annoying to those of us who do.

Fair enough Mel but understand that not all of us are calling for his head because he has'nt delivered "instantaneous results".

The wins are almost irrelevant to me but the coaches role is to enrich the tactical understanding of the players and to create an environment for them to enjoy their football.
I dont believe Pagan has succeeded in either and whats more, doesnt show a willingness to genuinely improve himself in either area.
Just my opinion.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Like you melbelle, I have faith, and am prepared to wait, and I also believe that with this recent controversy we will be a better run organisation. Surely the board will have learned something from this.

As for a team of kids...WOW...I love watching them grow. I don't mind being a humble Carlton supporter with a passionate streak, in fact I'm probably a better football person because of it.

I believe that it doesn't matter whether its Pagan or Mitchell or SOS or VOSS or....we have got a huge group of kids...never seen a total number of kids in one AFL team before like this. That should hold us in good stead. Add another 6 from this year's draft and we'll have 32 kids under 23. Now if that aint a foundation for the next decade I don't know what will.

Everyone has to improve, including Pagan, and I think it will happen. People learn. People adjust. Kids have another preseason. Our game plan is starting to resemble a modern style of play. Where's my sunglasses?

Goodonya Mel, may your team of kids win a dozen games in 2007.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Mel Pagan hasn't earned the right to do anything - how did he earn the right?????
Bondi I haven't seen much delelopment in the kids, that is the problem - you have said watch them grow, well some of them have actually gone backwards - I didn't think it was possible but it is true.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Fev and Lance were given a royal kick up their buttholes this time last year. They were almost traded, and I suggest to you they got their act together simply as a result of this.

The other names you have mentioned are players with talent, and they tend to develop the more they play. It is debatable that Pagan can take direct credit for the development of these types. And I believe I read Walker's father comment in here once that Tex says nothing's different to what happened last year, only that he's been given more game time. Hardly the wonder work of a wonder coach!!!

I admire your optimism Bondi but a football club bordering on insolvency is paying our senior coach 12 thousand dollars a week!
And after 4 years, we are hoping he will improve and become a good coach!!!!

His list management has been more than questionable and all reports are that the players have had enough.
If you want top dollar, you are required to produce top results.

IMO, he has fallen way short.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

[quote]If Brown is so concerned about the plight of carlton– why doesn’t he just give us the 1.25 mill anyway – he’s in the financial situation he’s in now because of the way the club looked after him (and vice versa)[/quote

Why would you give money to a Board and coach you don't respect?

That might be true, but now we've got a list with some good kids taken from recent drafts who are being coached by a selfish, lazy, incompetent coach.

Hawks are doing alright, and they play more kids than we do. Pagan usually leaves the kids on the bench.

Is it rediculous to call for his head because he treats his players with contempt and has little to no understanding of the way the modern game is played? Some of us actually know players at the club, and we know first hand that Pagan is a complete pr&*k. We also know (because we watch a lot of footy) that Pagan was forcing an inappropriate game plan down our players throats for 3 years. We also know he had to be told by the Board to play the kids. We also know he doesn't really do this 100%, probably only 30%, as he leaves the kids on the pine most of the time.

speakers you have highlighted some unusual quotes here, but the one that gets me is:



I have said this before and I will continue saying it: WE DID NOT IMPROVE THIS YEAR, WE STILL GOT THRASHED AND WHEN WE DIDN'T GET THRASHED IT WAS THE OPPOSITION GOING EASY ON US. phew sorry about that but this is killing me. Someone, anyone show me the games when we were competitive (and didn't win or draw)

1. Eagles at Subiaco
2. Sydney at TD

that is it, I haven't looked it up but how many times did we lose by 40 points or more?

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world