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GreatEx
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 1:03 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Rexy wrote:
It’s illogical to sakc Bolton when he’s never had a fit list to select from.


By that line of reasoning, no one can ever pass judgement on a coach because no one except Hardwick ever has a fully fit squad. Injuries don't explain why our midfielders burst forward with the ball and then have to wheel about and chip the ball 15m backwards because our forward line is empty. Injuries don't explain why our kick-ins after behinds are still being delivered short along the boundary when other teams run it out and get attacks started. Sooner or later the excuses dry up.
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bluegirl72
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 1:07 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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bmaurizio wrote:
bluegirl72 wrote:
Was gonna write the same. (Re adam's post.)
What shattered my trust in Bolts was having as close to best team we can for now(without doc and jones..arguably Willo) and we served up that mess.
As I don't think it is our talent pool I can only look to the coaches...plan, style of coaching, perhaps over coaching(seems to be a fair bit of buzz around that point) not saying how I might have heard it so don't ask. I love our club as everyone here does and it pains me to not a gazillion percent behind everyone.
Bolts seems to be a great bloke. I dont fault his endeavour.
I say get it over with sooner rather than later but wiser heads will decide. We won't be going back to scratch. We will be taking a massive step forward.
No more rebuilding. That part is done. We have to hone the craft of the players now and get the best out of each of them.
Plus add some more experience.


Agree with you, some just don’t seem to have the foresight, Brendon Bolton has instilled a great legacy built up the mentally of our youngsters and galvanized them too, not any easy task.
We move on with a very solid foundation and ite all positive , but we must progress quickly to a mentor that will develop them as men.
Simplicity , form, balance, tactical skills and a hard edged character.

yes.
and please, form the plan around their strengths.
give us a dynamic game plan.

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The Normal One
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 1:33 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Is this deleted tweet really what he said? Immediate dismissal. That is extraordinary.

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The Normal One
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 1:41 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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The Normal One wrote:
Is this deleted tweet really what he said? Immediate dismissal. That is extraordinary.

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Sack the Twitter person, they missed the mark with the summary of context.
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Adam Chatfield
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:42 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
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bmaurizio wrote:
bluegirl72 wrote:
Was gonna write the same. (Re adam's post.)
What shattered my trust in Bolts was having as close to best team we can for now(without doc and jones..arguably Willo) and we served up that mess.
As I don't think it is our talent pool I can only look to the coaches...plan, style of coaching, perhaps over coaching(seems to be a fair bit of buzz around that point) not saying how I might have heard it so don't ask. I love our club as everyone here does and it pains me to not a gazillion percent behind everyone.
Bolts seems to be a great bloke. I dont fault his endeavour.
I say get it over with sooner rather than later but wiser heads will decide. We won't be going back to scratch. We will be taking a massive step forward.
No more rebuilding. That part is done. We have to hone the craft of the players now and get the best out of each of them.
Plus add some more experience.


Agree with you, some just don’t seem to have the foresight, Brendon Bolton has instilled a great legacy built up the mentally of our youngsters and galvanized them too, not any easy task.
We move on with a very solid foundation and ite all positive , but we must progress quickly to a mentor that will develop them as men.
Simplicity , form, balance, tactical skills and a hard edged character.


How do we know any of this? We have the worst record of almost any side ever over the last 2 years.

For this to be worth it, I expect a run somewhere in the next 4-5 years where we only lose 4 of 42 games, and then win 6 flags in the next two decades.
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Adam Chatfield
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:45 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
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GreatEx wrote:
Rexy wrote:
It’s illogical to sakc Bolton when he’s never had a fit list to select from.


By that line of reasoning, no one can ever pass judgement on a coach because no one except Hardwick ever has a fully fit squad. Injuries don't explain why our midfielders burst forward with the ball and then have to wheel about and chip the ball 15m backwards because our forward line is empty. Injuries don't explain why our kick-ins after behinds are still being delivered short along the boundary when other teams run it out and get attacks started. Sooner or later the excuses dry up.


Exactly, our injuries are not even in the worse range of sides, about average compared to the rest of the comp.

Cripps, Weitering, McKay, Ed Curnow, Walsh and others have played every game. Charlie has played most, we are missing some experienced guys now but the list is paper thin, which is on SOS and the recruiting team.

Too many Hail Marys and not valuing list spots.
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muzza
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 2:57 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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GreatEx wrote:
Rexy wrote:
It’s illogical to sakc Bolton when he’s never had a fit list to select from.


By that line of reasoning, no one can ever pass judgement on a coach because no one except Hardwick ever has a fully fit squad. Injuries don't explain why our midfielders burst forward with the ball and then have to wheel about and chip the ball 15m backwards because our forward line is empty. Injuries don't explain why our kick-ins after behinds are still being delivered short along the boundary when other teams run it out and get attacks started. Sooner or later the excuses dry up.

In fact it could be argued that injuries do cause that because the plalyers who might ordinarily get the ball from or kick the ball to are not meant to be in the team because they are not ready or played out of position.

So Stocker, in his first game, who doesn't really play half back is playing half back, attempts to kick it to LOB who is playing midfield when he shouldn't be playing midfield who then tries to kick it to Harry, but he can't because Kreuzer is injured and he is pinch hitting in the ruck.

It is a domino effect.
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Steve_C7
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:39 pm
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jim wrote:
Rexy wrote:
No other team has a rebuilt list like us though

Emotions taking over rational thinking here I think


You know 4 years is quite a long time. We have 4 wins from the last 42. How hard is it to make a judgement on that.

Our players have been together a few years now. That is no excuse. 15 of the 22 who played last week have been there 3 years or more, mostly more. 3 more on a list 3 years or more. We've cut and it has been mostly rebuilt. Just have to develop properly what we have, and part of that is winning multiple games

Both our average age and comparable age player for player are exactly the same as the Bulldogs 2016 Grand Final side.

There are no excuses anymore.


I agree that there are no more excuse however, that is not to say that there has been no excuses.

Look at how many games our midfield have played together, our forward line have played together and it shows why our defense looks so much better than other parts of the team
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GreatEx
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:42 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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muzza wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Rexy wrote:
It’s illogical to sakc Bolton when he’s never had a fit list to select from.


By that line of reasoning, no one can ever pass judgement on a coach because no one except Hardwick ever has a fully fit squad. Injuries don't explain why our midfielders burst forward with the ball and then have to wheel about and chip the ball 15m backwards because our forward line is empty. Injuries don't explain why our kick-ins after behinds are still being delivered short along the boundary when other teams run it out and get attacks started. Sooner or later the excuses dry up.

In fact it could be argued that injuries do cause that because the plalyers who might ordinarily get the ball from or kick the ball to are not meant to be in the team because they are not ready or played out of position.

So Stocker, in his first game, who doesn't really play half back is playing half back, attempts to kick it to LOB who is playing midfield when he shouldn't be playing midfield who then tries to kick it to Harry, but he can't because Kreuzer is injured and he is pinch hitting in the ruck.

It is a domino effect.


Okay, so if Harry is pinch hitting in the ruck, someone else should be presenting up forward. And if that someone else is hanging about on a half back flank because he's not a natural forward (and is also a tad thick) then whose job is it to tell him what's expected of him as a forward? Injuries may explain why your temp forward drops his marks and shanks his set shots, but for me it doesn't explain why he's in the wrong postcode.
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Adam Chatfield
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Geoff Southby

Joined: Mon Apr 21, 2008 1:14 pm
Posts: 5991
Location: Melbourne
GreatEx wrote:
muzza wrote:
GreatEx wrote:
Rexy wrote:
It’s illogical to sakc Bolton when he’s never had a fit list to select from.


By that line of reasoning, no one can ever pass judgement on a coach because no one except Hardwick ever has a fully fit squad. Injuries don't explain why our midfielders burst forward with the ball and then have to wheel about and chip the ball 15m backwards because our forward line is empty. Injuries don't explain why our kick-ins after behinds are still being delivered short along the boundary when other teams run it out and get attacks started. Sooner or later the excuses dry up.

In fact it could be argued that injuries do cause that because the plalyers who might ordinarily get the ball from or kick the ball to are not meant to be in the team because they are not ready or played out of position.

So Stocker, in his first game, who doesn't really play half back is playing half back, attempts to kick it to LOB who is playing midfield when he shouldn't be playing midfield who then tries to kick it to Harry, but he can't because Kreuzer is injured and he is pinch hitting in the ruck.

It is a domino effect.


Okay, so if Harry is pinch hitting in the ruck, someone else should be presenting up forward. And if that someone else is hanging about on a half back flank because he's not a natural forward (and is also a tad thick) then whose job is it to tell him what's expected of him as a forward? Injuries may explain why your temp forward drops his marks and shanks his set shots, but for me it doesn't explain why he's in the wrong postcode.


We haven’t had any more injuries than you would expect.

We are like the Sam Pang Orchard, we can only perform if the conditions and circumstances are absolutely perfect, which it never is.
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jim
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:23 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:21 pm
Posts: 8201
Steve_C7 wrote:
jim wrote:
Rexy wrote:
No other team has a rebuilt list like us though

Emotions taking over rational thinking here I think


You know 4 years is quite a long time. We have 4 wins from the last 42. How hard is it to make a judgement on that.

Our players have been together a few years now. That is no excuse. 15 of the 22 who played last week have been there 3 years or more, mostly more. 3 more on a list 3 years or more. We've cut and it has been mostly rebuilt. Just have to develop properly what we have, and part of that is winning multiple games

Both our average age and comparable age player for player are exactly the same as the Bulldogs 2016 Grand Final side.

There are no excuses anymore.


I agree that there are no more excuse however, that is not to say that there has been no excuses.

Look at how many games our midfield have played together, our forward line have played together and it shows why our defense looks so much better than other parts of the team


The side itself has been together for quite a while, no excuse to be going as badly as we are more to the point. Nothing explains 4 from 42, 1-9 unfortunately. Our whole profile last Sunday from averages games played, average age, comparing age/experience player for player, same amount players under 50 games compares exactly the same as the Dogs 2016 GF side. While there might be other things that are a difference it doesn't explain one side winning the flag while the other laments on the bottom. Talent level isn't different, coaches would love our side, the names on our forward line are much better. One big difference was Beverige got the best out of a side that wasn't that talented, while we have Bolton.
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Rexy
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:48 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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We have the poorest group of over 26yo's in the competition and people want to blame Bolton and sakc him ..??

Bolton inherited a basket case of a club from top to bottom. People forget that too easily because of their emotions.
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jake_h03
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:58 pm 
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John Nicholls
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Rexy wrote:
We have the poorest group of over 26yo's in the competition and people want to blame Bolton and sakc him ..??

Bolton inherited a basket case of a club from top to bottom. People forget that too easily because of their emotions.


Well said. The rebuild we’ve undertaken is akin to GWS or Gold Coast entering the competition, but with less handouts.

That said, we need to start seeing more consistent efforts real soon or he will run out of time, even if it’s not his fault.


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jim
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 4:59 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

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Rexy wrote:
We have the poorest group of over 26yo's in the competition and people want to blame Bolton and sakc him ..??

Bolton inherited a basket case of a club from top to bottom. People forget that too easily because of their emotions.


Kruezer, Thomas, Murphy, Simpson, Ed Curnow, Nic Newman. That, and Levi, the sum of our players over 26. Probably be worse than that around.

Ratten inherited a total basket case too and was in finals within 2 years. Only reason we are still a basket case is our coach is no good. 4 from 42, 1-9 after 4 years. What does that tell you? Can't use kids as an excuse now. It's 4 years now, players have played together for quite a while. Our profile is exactly the same as the Dogs in 2016. They had 9 players under 50 games in their GF side.

Stop making excuses. You must be a masochist to put up with that garbage. If you can't tell how good a coach is by now you never will. You think he is getting the best out of each player relative to their background? The very basic a coach must do in any sport. The answer would be a huge no.
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jake_h03
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:18 pm 
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John Nicholls
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jim wrote:
Rexy wrote:
We have the poorest group of over 26yo's in the competition and people want to blame Bolton and sakc him ..??

Bolton inherited a basket case of a club from top to bottom. People forget that too easily because of their emotions.


Kruezer, Thomas, Murphy, Simpson, Ed Curnow, Nic Newman. That, and Levi, the sum of our players over 26. Probably be worse than that around.


You’ve got to be kidding right? That’s one of the worst group of over 26 players of the modern era. How many of them would get a game at another club based on 2019 form? Thomas at some, Simmo at some. That’s probably it.


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dlb99
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:58 pm 
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Garry Crane

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jake_h03 wrote:
Well said. The rebuild we’ve undertaken is akin to GWS or Gold Coast entering the competition, but with less handouts.

That said, we need to start seeing more consistent efforts real soon or he will run out of time, even if it’s not his fault.


GWS won 11 games in their 4th year.

In our 4th year of Bolton we have 1 win in the books.

Structure, tactics and game-plan look to have fallen apart again, the 2nd year in a row.
Players look confused, players look despondent.
That is totally on the coaches.

We swapped 1st round picks with the Crows with the expectation we would be much improved; say pick 4 (us) for pick 10 (Crows). Instead it may be pick 1 for pick 12.

We should be a 7 or 8 win team (at least).
We should beat St Kilda, Gold Coast, North Melbourne's, instead we lose.

Off-field is the best it has been for a generation.
On-field is in crisis.
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Brently8
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:07 pm 
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John James

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Does having the same point made over and over and over again do anybody else's head in? #4from42
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dlb99
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Garry Crane

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Brently8 wrote:
Does having the same point made over and over and over again do anybody else's head in? #4from42


Only winning 4 from 42 does my head in :banghead:
Accepting 4 wins from 42 does my head in :banghead:
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GreatEx
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:19 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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To be fair 4 from 42 is a pretty strong evidentiary case. Saying we should stick fat and things will come good because some coaches have done well after a poor early W/L record, while ignoring those who started shit and stayed shit, is pretty specious.

Okay so I'm possibly being unfair to the pro-Bolton camp but honestly, I've been racking my brain for evidence of stuff he's doing well, and I am coming up empty. To be fair, I felt differently at half time in Tassie, but things have plummeted dramatically since then, and I've noticed in most sports that coaches almost never reverse such negative momentum, especially without past successes to boost their cause.
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muzza
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:24 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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dlb99 wrote:
jake_h03 wrote:
Well said. The rebuild we’ve undertaken is akin to GWS or Gold Coast entering the competition, but with less handouts.

That said, we need to start seeing more consistent efforts real soon or he will run out of time, even if it’s not his fault.


GWS won 11 games in their 4th year.

In our 4th year of Bolton we have 1 win in the books.

Structure, tactics and game-plan look to have fallen apart again, the 2nd year in a row.
Players look confused, players look despondent.
That is totally on the coaches.

We swapped 1st round picks with the Crows with the expectation we would be much improved; say pick 4 (us) for pick 10 (Crows). Instead it may be pick 1 for pick 12.

We should be a 7 or 8 win team (at least).
We should beat St Kilda, Gold Coast, North Melbourne's, instead we lose.

Off-field is the best it has been for a generation.
On-field is in crisis.

It’s all good. We got Cripps at pick 13.
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