In 2002 it was pretty clear that we were shit - but 2 years of no first round and second round draft picks - is a pretty flowering harsh penalty and very difficult to generate improvement on a list.

Then our Coach decided on the second hand hack strategy which gave us a temporary boost in 2004 and left us out of early draft picks in 2004 when we could have had a shot at Deledio, Franklin, Roughead etc.

Then dont forget our Player Development resources were negligible at the time when players like Aisake and Setanta would have needed them most - who knows where Aisake would have ended up with exposure to something akin to Collingwood's player development academy/program.

Blaming Stynes for Melbourne not making the Grand Final is pretty harsh - given that he was part of a player group that got them that far in 1987 (and we have to thank them for softening up Hawthorn for us) and then ultimately made it in 1988.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

BB, your 8th point isn't right. The international rookie system required the club to take Santy in the rookie draft instead of another rookie. The only advantage was that he could be signed directly rather than all of the other teams having the option of drafting him.

Santy was taken at pick 62 in the 2004 rookie draft. He was the 5th rookie taken (Carrazzo, Boyd, Bentick and Pleming were the others). It's possible that we wouldn't have taken another rookie if we hadn't taken Santy. Of the 13 picks after Santy was taken, clubs didn't utilise 7 picks. The 6 guys recruited after Santy only managed a combined total of 4 games, and none of them are playing now. For all we know, Santy didn't cost anyone a place in that year. He earned his spot on the list in succeeding years when you compare him to the other rookies we've had. When a player has almost 50 games to his name, you can hardly say he was a waste of space.

SB, I don't know why you continue to talk of Aisake and Santy in the same breath. I made it clear over the last few years that I saw Santy as the better prospect, even if Aisake is taller and more athletic. Trying to dog Santy by talking about Aisake is like undercutting Sticks' legacy by pointing out that David Kernahan was no star, or Earl Spalding's by talking about his brother Scott.

Apparently, the players are meeting today to decide what to do/recommend. The tip is that they'll bring him back into the fold from next Monday. I'll have a laugh if that happens. I wouldn't want to be the dog in casa SB or KingKerna

Not only have they been sharpening their switchblades for nothing, the players may well undercut their biggest point. They've been banging on about Santy's continued presence destroying morale amongst the players. We were told that the players wouldn't want him around. And yet they're poised to bring him back within a week. I'm sure they'll have an explanation for that. No doubt 43 players will still want to have nothing to do with him, no matter what happens today ...

I have never said he destroys the morale of the other players - I have said he is a crap footballer and saying he has played nearly 50 games so he must be good is a joke - He has been getting selected on the basis of promise and nothing else - These two only needed to learn how to jump and tap- Like Jim did and they would be a regular member of the team - Neither could do that -
I also understand that an international rookie doesn't cost you anything in the way of picks I don't really have an issue with that - It is when they have finished their 2 of 3 years as a rookie and they are still crap and get promoted to the senoir list that bugs me

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Sb I am not one to beat about the bush, you are xenaphobic, straight up and out and out.
Proved in your remark about Kennelly and Clarke, a bit of speed to cover their arses??
You're mad.

Kennelly had great pace but could pick passes and kick goals.
Clarke is one of the best passers of a ball in the pies if not the whole comp, have a look this year.
Setanta and Aisake, IF they were born in Oz????
They were.
And they were int rookies, so in no way could a local kid be drafted in the same way.

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'Cause I'm J.U.D.D
I'm dynamite
J.U.D.D
And I'll win that fight
J.U.D.D
I'm a power load
J.U.D.D, Watch me explode

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'Cause I'm J.U.D.D
I'm dynamite
J.U.D.D
And I'll win that fight
J.U.D.D
I'm a power load
J.U.D.D, Watch me explode

Kevin Rudd feeling a bit xenophonic at the moment .

Kennelly and Clarke deliver the ball well is because they give themselves time to settle through their speed - at this level you give yourself time you can deliver - Our two don't have that

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

And a certain very recent Carlton Best & Fairest Winner who has played the game all his life delivers the ball not so well because ..............

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Wow, you must really have disliked the way Kouta was given a free ride because of his athletic potential.

If Setanta was not a good footballer he would not have got even one game playing at the absolute highest level of Australian Football competition in the world, but he was selected not once, but many times. Setanta IS an Australian born AFL player who has been consistently selected to play at the highest level of Australian Football competition in the world, that's not speculation, it's a fact you have to deal with (if you can).

It's your opinion he does not perform well at this level, and that's fair enough, but in the CFC coach and match committees eyes he does, otherwise they would not keep selecting him and would have de-listed him.

You're trying hard to keep the prejudice alive there SB. Yep, Kennelly and Clarke can't deliver under pressure - they're just able to scoot clear of pressure in order to conceal the fragility of their skills. Just like David Clarke. The best way to make sure you wouldn't be hit in the head by one of his kicks was to take refuge in between Clarke and his target.

You're no doubt hoping you can continue to sell the "no footskills" line. I'd put Santy's footskills firmly in the top half of our list. His ability to kick long with penetration, and his willingness to use that skill over the safe option of sideways or backwards chips, makes him valuable.

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that Santy has been given big jobs because he was one of the few capable of doing them. When Cloke did his shoulder, there really was no one else who could have done the job as fill-in ruckman. When he was given the job on guys like Brown, Barry Hall, Richo, Lloyd, Lucas, Travis Cloke, and Pav, it wasn't as if Carlton was just giving him experience at the expense of better qualified team mates. Maybe you've forgotten that our stock of tall defenders was limited. Given that he's done very good jobs on some very competent opponents, your attempt to write off his 46 games as a mere attempt to develop him is ridiculous.

But one thing you ignore is that other players on our list don't have the benefit of having grown up with Aussie Rules. Shaun Hampson, for instance, didn't take up footy until the year before we drafted him. He grew up in Queensland in an area that was largely indifferent to our footy. In fact, soccer was his preferred game. The need to put a lot of work into him to develop his skills has been obvious over the last few years. Another one is Dennis Armfield. He was from a Rugby League background, IIRC in Sydney. He then took up footy over in WA when he was about 18 years old. He had a few years of footy before we took him in the draft, but he doesn't have life-long footy experience behind him.

If you want to shut your eyes to blokes who don't come from traditional Aussie Rules areas, you'll be turning your back on quite a few Aussies as well as the Irish.

Armfield has speed and an ability to tackle - the rest I'm not so sure time will tell
Hampson - hasn't done enough to fully convince me yet either
Clarke was given a shot at three clubs and failed -because of poor skills


Sinbagger - Kouta played the game all his life

and Agro - I know and another two previous winners are no longer around either

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

So pace doesn't cure poor skills. Which means that Marty Clarke and Kennelly must have had good skills in addition to pace to succeed by foot. Now there's a revelation ...

I like that because you don't rate Setanta all of a sudden you wanted him to get the boot, don't like Irish players and will be forced to shut up if he is back at the club next week.

Perhaps you should actually read other peoples posts.

I have always stated that I want him on our list this year, I also believe that if the players are happy for him to be part of their group then all is fine.

If SB is too far away to comment on games then perhaps Beano is way too far away to talk about a club that he only has interest in because of one player, he himself has previously stated that he would follow whoever Setanta plays for. Plus he hates our coach, an out an out club champion.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

this is going well.............

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

SB - Love the fact you have mentioned Jim Stynes and that all they had to do was learn to jump and tap .

Other than being irish and tall thats where your comparison should end. Jim stynes played in a different era and whether he would have made the grade in todays game is debate able. The game has changed enourmously since he retired (1998). What we knew as traditional ruckman are now extinct with the introduction of the centre circle rule (around 2004/2005). Its the reason that we no longer see those considered short for a ruck able to effectively compete anymore - they quite simply cant given that they have to jump of two and no more than three steps. If you think that competing in the ruck is simply jump and tap then you need to do a bit more research.

Thanks for correcting me Indie re International rookies. I didn't know that, and I never doubt your knowledge on the game, nor Mav's either.

Jimmy Stynes...well he was a pretty good mark, made a mistake that no Aussie born player would make and cost his team a spot in the GF. He bloody well improved after that and he sure repaid the faithful at the Dees...and entertained me. I appreciated the heights he reached.

I run a business with a few employees, I have also held senior roles in Corporate world for a couple of decades. One thing I couldn't agree with was the blame game. If an employee made a mistake, I would not question what's between his ears before I checked to see if he'she has been empowered to do the job. More than not, there's managers or processes which failed the employee. It's good that it happens bevcause it gives one an opportunity to improve their organisation. Was it Jimmy's fault or was it the trainers...it may have been the heat of the moment. It happens week in wek out...silly little mistakes...sure it cost a GF, but so did all the mistakes made by team mates in the previous 100 minutes.

Did our club harness the potential of Santy and give him the best grounding in our game? Could the club have done better to develop him? We all know the answer to that and why we couldn't. Same goes with Aisake, but hey, Santy is still here; that's whoi we're talking about.

SB, we tried delisted players from other teams. Pagan did it, so why hate Pagan? You should be happy that he took on 15 retreads in his time hear..............and all are gone now, but not Santy.

Santy has taken scalps. BIG ones. But you don't want to acknowledge that. So in 46 games you haven't seen any good signs. Not sure that's true SB.

You want a better player on our list who can take on the 200cm forwards and so we all should. But the fact remains, that until we unearth someone to take his mantle then Santy's a required member of the team. Can't you see that?

Another thing, I have seen improvement in Santy in each year he's played. Don't tell me you haven't seen improvement.

Did you like the job he's done on Cloke (Travis), Pavlich, Richo (on the last line), Browny and Hall?

He's not as bad as you make out SB, and that's why you are considered unbalanced and biased against Santy by fellow posters...just have a reread of your posts...just in this thread...read them literally, without considering what you really want to say. There's just a lack of logic and honesty in your assessment.

I cannot believe what SB says about Clark and Kennely. The one thing I really admire about those 2 players is their ability to deliver accurately at full pace. I've seen it live and on the tube over and over again...they're both hot!

Mate, they are very competent footballers and both would be in their team's top 10 players. Smell the roses SB. They are damn good players who are picked week in week out in their teams which have been consistently top 4 teams (let alone GF's and premiers) with those 2 in the team. Where's your logic man?

Come on SB. Santy isn't as bad as you are making out.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

You might be thinking of the International Scholarship Holders, BB. Clubs can give such scholarships to anyone who has been raised in another country, with the exception of Ireland. They're treated like the NSW Scholarship holders. They are given some assistance to train where they are and are brought over for some training here. None of it goes under the salary cap, and the club has the option of nominating them in the draft and using their last pick of the draft. Once they are selected, however, either as a rookie or a senior-listed player they take up one of the spots on the list and there isn't a special spot outside the usual 44. Western Bulldogs have given such scholarships to Fijians recently, and South Africa may well become more important in forthcoming years.

With the Irish international rookies, they're like father/son picks. Once they've signed on the dotted line, a club can nominate them as a pick ahead of the draft - either as a rookie or a senior player. When the draft happens, they are then formally drafted using the last pick in the relevant draft. Once they're onto the list, there may be some slight differences is what a club is allowed to pay and how much of that must be included under the TPP, and they can be retained for 3 rather than 2 years (without using the strategy we used with Sauce). But effectively, once they're onto the list, they're like any other player. They count in the 44 and use up a spot that could be used on someone nominating for the drafts in the usual way. But there is absolutely no way of recruiting an Irish player outside the draft on a scholarship and putting him on ice as is possible for other international players, although perhaps the same thing might be achieved by signing up an Irish player now with a view to drafting them in a year or two if they scrub up (but I don't know whether this is permitted).

I must be watching a different Setanta to some of you, he's neither brilliant or completely crap. IMO he's going to have a bit of work to do this season to survive beyond the end of the year.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

I agree with your comment wojee.

Imo, he's middle of the road who happens to have the advantage of height and reach which most other defenders in our team lack. He also happens to be quite athletic, or put it this wasy, not slow for a big man almost 200cm.

The fact that he's taken some quality scalps or broke even with some wasn't through brilliance, but moreso from a highly competitive tilt and sticking to simple tasks.

I think he plays safe, and doesn't run the ball out of defense like he use to as a crazy man; he's obviously been told.

If all has been forgiven from the incident last week, I'd bet that he's be selected if he's in form when we play against the teams who have a few very tall forwards including those around the 200cm mark, who would stretch our defence for height and reach.

I think he will be overtaken, and I also believe that after the Cloke fiasco, if he doesn't really stand out he's on precarious ground for season 2010; after all he doesn't have a contract beyond 2009. I think the GC17 draft concessions may just save him, but time will tell.

I just hope he continues to have a red hot go, and as with all Carlton players I wish him well in season 2009.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

You must be talking about Kerrie Anne Kennelly.
Tadgh Kenelly has sensational footskills and IMO would be in the top 20% of the AFL players for ball use.

That's why the Swans worked so hard to get the ball in his hands in their backline.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.