Remember Caz - when one mind closes, another one opens!
I love to read anything anyone has the time to post here - so as long as I get to it, a post never goes unappreciated!

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Now stalking Carlton on Twitter and Facebook!

Let me state that I said in my previous post that I dont totally blame the CFC for Hill playing in a sub standard competition {VFL 2s)because of ridicolous rules about how many listed players can be played at VFL 1sts level
I havent spoken to Hill ever
That shouldnt matter should it
For Hill a rookie listed player playing in that competition is a joke. That comp is shit.VFL seconds that is. I have gone to a few games you know
I can understand if they want him to get match fit and he cant play in VFL firsts then he plays in the seconds.
On the other side of the coin the kid is a second year rookie listed player and if he has to play VFL seconds to gain some confidence the the kid is being treated a tad too kindly.
I assume he is a fulltime footballer. Should dominate VFL seconds.

You seem to dismiss my and other posters opinions because we are just spectators.

I am not so arrogant to think that in the long run every opinion I say is right.
Same applies to you I hope


The point I was making is the seconds comp is flawed

We need to take the bull by the hornes and have a stand alone seconds team.

There was talk that this was going to happen .It hasnt and should IMO.


One thing you said really interests me
Hill played seconds for the Bullants for a month or so to not have consequences for bad decisions
This to me is one of the main reasons we have been such a disappointing club. I went to the Sydney game and was frankly disgusted with some of the players efforts and lack of team play . Saw it first hand . Some should have been dropped.
They were not. Lack of consequences has been great for this club hasnt it

You made good points about the compromises forced by an alignment, but I reckon your last paragraph was waaaay off the mark. Pretty tendentious reading of Cazzes' point re consequences - to equate Hill to what happens to underperforming Seniors is just silly. Hill is a young player with a lot of development required, and seems to have come a fair way in 1/3 of a season mostly played at a lower level. He needed to learn some of the basics, and to gain some confidence. For a player in his position, starring in the Ants 2s is EXACTLY what he needed. A real pity he did his hammy when he was making excellent progress.

As a general point, I think your criticism of the MC is overcooked too. They've made the odd mistake, which is normal, but the general direction of their thinking has been pretty sound, I reckon.

Let me clarify a bit what I am saying

Human behaviour is heavily influenced by the possible consequences for good and poor actions
Hill isnt being taught the right thing by playing in the VFL seconds where he flowers up and it doesnt matter. That to me not only makes no sense but is appalling in my view. It teaches the kid the wrong thing. I am not knocking Hill but the club if that is what he is told.
team sport is exactly that a team sport
and one thing will never change
a champion team will always beat a team of champions
look no further than Enright and Scartlett disagreeing on who should have been on who as Hawthorn belted them in the second half of last years grannie
Consequences are very important if you want to shape human behaviour and in a team sport poor and good behaviour by one individual can effect the whole team significantly
You think of the Fev straight away but I mentioned the Sydney game and an incident involving Brett Thornton left me and other supporters disgusted.
Thornton kicked a up and under pass to Betts who was under the pump but had run hard to make a play. If the kick was of a good country footy standard Betts would have marked it on his chest. It was a shit kick but Thornton should have been dropped for what he did straight afterwards as he cracked the shits at the shortest player on the ground for having the ball knocked away from him. This happened in the first quarter and set the tone for the rest of the team and the match.Disgraceful behaviour by a senior 130 game player.

IMO the bar should be raised as far as what is acceptable. We as a club have been too soft on players. The greatest consequence for a player is to be dropped .
So if Hill is told that it doesnt matter if he doesnt kick it laces out to some poor hack in a Northen Bullants seconds game then that is teaching the kid to not respect the players he is playing with or more importantly that their are no consequences for poor actions. Hopefully Hill wont see it that way.

Keogh I think the point is the club wanted Hill to learn that mistakes are part of his learning process (he's not at the point of playing for Carlton, he is at the point of learning to play) and to not drop his bundle because of them (something that might have happened because the jump from school to VFL footy can be too big a jump, and he may have already felt under the pump - not knowing the kid its hard to say but obviously from what Caz has said they were considering his confidence at the beginning of his journey more than his long term attitude). They want him to learn consequences/to learn he belongs, to learn to back himself, not to learn he is no good - it is that balance that every educator the world over must work on - whether it be sport/writing or algebra.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Perhaps the debate could be directed at whether or not a player, such as Hill, who is a fair back way in development it seems as far as Carlton selection is concerned, should've been drafted in the first place. Good reasons for and against I suppose...

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There's so much I could say...

Isn't that what the rookie list is for? Players who show possibility, but are nowhere near enticing clubs to draft them onto the main list. To expose them to the system, and give them the tools to improve, hopefully to the A level?

Where do you draw the line? That's the tricky question.

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There's so much I could say...

Good points Danny but having witnessed VFL seconds first hand it is of such a poor standard that I fail to see how it could develop a players level in the positive if he is a rookie on an AFL list

I was lucky enough to catch Mazenod and St Josephs play a game down at Geelong this week and St Joseph's team is awesome. Would give a VFL side a run for its money. Better skills for sure. I disagree that the jump from Private School footy to VFL firsts is too great. Hill has also just turned 20. He aint a school kid anymore.

The guy is not ready to play for Carlton . Agree
But he should be playing VFL firsts. If he makes mistakes at that level which of course he will he will see it as a positive.
Your right it is a fine balancing act.
My argument is VFL firsts isnt a great standard anyway and Hill should be atleast competitve at that level at 20 years of age and if he cant mentally cope with making mistakes at that level I question whether he should be a rookie on an AFL list anyway.
IMO its a too soft approach

Once you've run out of picks in the Rookie draft.

too soft for a rookie - the whole point of rookies is that is going to take them time - and it seems to have worked (except for injury) - in the end we don't know these kids and their particular needs however I doubt a decision about the kid was made because we are too soft on them.

If anything I think Carlton (in the past) was silly in how they decided player x was no good and moved on far too quickly.

I think what you are saying about the firsts has merit and I'd also like to see the consequences ramped up a bit for them but that process is a different process to the rookies who we want to bring along. At every step along the way the processes must differ. The clubs must ensure each draftee is given the best path towards success.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Unbelievable reading... i dont have to worry about a thing now....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Allan Richardson.

calm down mate , i think we all get the point

posting it a million times across every thread wont all of a sudden make it happen or make anyone listen any harder to you

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

True. Might as well hang shit on the Bombers and there pathetic list of players yeah............ Allan Richardson

Didn't i read that AR declined to join Carlton because we wanted him to replicate his Collingwood Dev program, whereas he wanted to coach and went to Essendon* to be an assistant??

Is that correct Melvey? If so it's like asking Tadgh Keneally to play for Carlton when he's left to play Gaelic footy.

Should we get Tadgh Keneally?

Every man has his price... and im pretty sure AR has his...
But then again they would have to play to a gameplan to be developed.. so what is ours is what i go to sleep asking myself...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.