I'm a little disappointed we didn't go in and play our normal style of footy. Ya know, the one that won us 4/6 games?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and I'm sure we would've been smashed anyway, but to me it looked as if we were trying to outsmart them but instead, outsmarted ourselves.

Not a good effort on or off the field. Had Geelong not kicked with their heels for 3 quarters, it would've been 120 points.

_________________
end of message

Yes.

_________________
"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

...I don't get it - Pagan didn't even coach last night.

The point of this thread is to ask some of the hard questions about Ratten's coaching. It is a waste of time comparing him to Pagan but he needs to be compared with competency and tactical smarts required by a premiership coach. It is great to see he has the players on side but I just think this forum look at him through rose coloured glasses. You have to question his selections in terms of backing youth. The Edwards, Pfeiffer demotions were baffling for mine.

YES - Pagan would have coached worse not because he's a bad coach per se..........but his game style was not adequate for our playing personnel.

If anyone seriously expected us to win (using their head not their heart) they know nothing about the current status of where Carlton and Geelong are as teams.

The chipping around footy is ONLY used to stem the flow of constant opposition goals. It worked in the 2nd Qtr on Saturday and is a good tactic for where we are at the moment.

Murphy being wanted by North - FOR FLOWER SAKE!!!!!! - No kidding Einstein. In the past we've wanted lots of opposition players, and some of our players have even wanted to leave..............how many trades are done???? North aren't finishing on the bottom of the ladder to have us over any barrel.

_________________
That's right. Gather the nector my little drones and make honey. Honey for your children.......Fools!!!

Our expectations are way to high... A rookie coach, a very weak list who were mentally destroyed over the past few years.

I have no doubt that Ratts is a better coach than Pagen in every way possible However that doesnt make him the right coach for us and here are my reasons WHY?

1. Scotts playing off HB when he has NO defensive quality what so ever. If he needs to play him then play him up the ground where he doesnt have to stop anyone.

2. Carrots also playing in defense with the same qualities lacking in his game.

3. GIBBS: This might take a while, Number 1 pick should get tagged NOT be a tagger this is a DISGRACE! Play him on the ball and through HF and never in defense. He has skills, he can tackle and he has a great football brain therefore play him in a position where he can be damaging, ON THE BALL OR HF, he could be the next Steve Johnson.

4. JR: can someone please tell me what his role is in our team week in week out??? or better yet why is he even in the team??? what does this dropkick bring to our 22??? Im trying really hard to see some quality but i cant. Bullants for you JR and good luck where ever you go next year.

Murph needs to play more in the center, enough of this HF shit. in the center square every time and thats it.

The one really good move ratts has made is Waite down back.

Stevo as a run with player??? plays on Bell and on Ablett??? A run with player is someone who is blessed with the skills of the games but can run and tackle, why waste a gun ball getter in this role??? Why not use JR in this role? If he cant do that then they should sack him on the spot.

Fisher needs to be playing as a pocket player, as a pinch hitter and thats all he can do.

I know we have some of our starters out at the moment which is a good thing for us to see what we have but the decision making is all wrong in my eyes, if our younger kids are fit then play them so they can get 5, 10 or 15 games under there belt before we really start our push up the ladder.

Ratts needs to show some balls and drop players like Carrots and Scotts soon to make his point that although in the leadership group you are not exempt from being dropped.

unfortunately if youre just chipping the basll around without purpose youre just running down the clock and not addressing the fundamental flaws in the gameplan....

We lack defensive attitude by some players up the ground which then puts the pressure on the players in d4efence.

Ratts should drop a few names and make a stand!!!

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Ok its noit about the margin or the win / loss.. its about the fundamentals...

Any blocking or shepherding??? Nope
Talk???nope
Structures??? nope!!!
Linking up???? Nope!!!

Just cos we have Judd doewsnt mean he is coaching better than Pagan.. does it???

We lack the fundamentals a team needs to go forward..

Theyre gut busting runs...
cohesion....
defensiveness

etc.....

Take Judd out of that soide and it IS 100 points....

So forget about wins and losses ... its about a team across the bpoard effort on the field and coaching...

Look at Collingwoood...!!!!

You cant say thgeyre older.... or more skilled can u???

But if they lose players numbers 12/14/ and 16 one week and bring in players numbers 35/ 36/37 .. those npo name players still fit in dont they????


They all run hard.. they all tackle and when its thgeir turn to put their heads over the balkl they will...

BUT..... they also play to a plan/... dont they???

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

id drop stevens and scotland personally. gutless players. never chase down an opponent or do the team things. selfish players with no balls. send a msg through the team. its a flower TEAM sport and that means sacrifice everything for the team. leave everything out on the field.

_________________
"You're not gonna believe this. The guy killed 16 czechoslovakians. He was an interior decorator."

"His house looked like shit!"

Geez I wonder if that was what Clarkson was thinking a year or so back when Hawthorn were renowned for chipping it every where or for that matter Bomber Thompson the Cats were ther worst ones at it and that was only two years ago- That 10 minutes of play before the half time was the best bit of football have seen this side play in years . Showed they can think for themselves and showed ball control

If Pagan had of coached that side we would have lost by more than the West coast did .

there were three others sides lost by more than us against weaker opposition on the weekend- That never happend under Pagan

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Youre comparing us to those three other teams are you???

Well that must make you feel better....

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

well thats obviously three other teams we are better than - we couldn't say that for the last 6 years- remember we are 11th that means there are now 5 teams below us - we can actually look behind us and see something other than our shadow

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

yes- so why are you comparing our performances with theirs????

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

well you sound like you want Pagan back

This team is younger than last year and you can see they are learning the game they are adopting different tactics and different times - Learning to think not getting dragged for mistakes - this side is slowly getting better

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Why do i sound like i want Pagan back???
You are clutching at straws again arent you???

Im actually not following you..... youre hard to understand.......


This side doesnt know how to play the game ...Ratts was midfield coach last year and senior cpoach for 6 games and 10 games and has had a pre season with them...


Take Juddy out of that side... and a year of them getting bigger and there is not that much difference is there???
Some p-layers have progressed.. some have stalled and some have gone backwards....
Now how much older is a Collingwood ???

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Jeez the way some of you carry on, you sound like Richmond fans that turn on each other. All my years of supporting the blues i would of thought we are above the cannibalism culture.

There is no doubt that the boys and the club has improved from last year, and i for one am glad that the poison years of pagan are behind us. Our kids and coach are developing and will learn a lot from playing sides like Geelong. Granted though we still need to make some hard decisions over some of the slower senior players.

Remember where we were last year and lets not get ahead of ourselves, as the best is yet to come.

We were exactly in this position this time last year.....

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

If Geelong had kicked straight we would have lost by 16 goals. The number they missed from set shots was amazing. Thats right, no pressure, just bad kicks.

Dont be fooled we were beaten by 100 points and more. The score board just said 55, thats all

_________________
Go BLues

how nice of you to choose collingwood as an example
1. malthouse has had about 10 seasons to develop a team, teach games plans, systems etc - every youngster drafted gets developed/taught the same way so when they come in, they know what to do - ratten has had 1 preseason (hasnt completed a season yet)
2. injuries - pies were missing only presti and rusling from their top 25 or so players. We were missing twice that from our starting back 6 (+houlihan/hadley who would contribute mature bodies/hardness)
3. A comparison between the 2 teams
pies - 9 players with 100+games (6 with 150 or more) (cats 11 players with 6 at 150+)
blues - 5 players with 100+games (1 with 150 or more)
pies average age - 24yrs 10 months (cats 25 yrs, 0 months)
blues average age - 23 yrs 0 months)
pies average games played 92.4 (cats 93.8 )
blues average games played 59.1

In otherwords the pies are virtually identical to the cats in development and pretty much 2 full seasons of footy ahead of us - If you included statistical player turnover/attrition rates that happen in ALL teams, then the figure would be closer to being 3-4 season behind in terms of player/team development.

4. The sub 50 games players
Pies had 8
wellingham - 4 games, 19yo 82 kgs, the skinny body
cox - 9 games, 22 yo, 94kgs mature body
brown - 10 games, 19yo, 97kg mature body
clarke - 20 games, 20yo, 84kgs matureish body
wood - 24 games, 21yo 105 kg mature body (twice experience of kreuzer+hampson combined)
bryan - 31 games, 26yo, 99kg mature body
obrien - 46 games, 21 yo 90kg matureish body
pendlebury - 42 games, 20yo, 88kgs matureish body

compare that to the blues
armfield - 1st game, 21yo, 77kgs (ie skinny)
browne - 5th game 19yo, 76 kgs (ie skinny)
hampson - 6th game, 20yo, 97kgs (ie skinny - for a 200+cm ruckman)
kreuzer - 8th game, 19yo, 97kgs (ie skinny for a 200+cm ruckman)
grigg - 13th game, 20 yo, 86kgs (semi mature body)
bower - 22nd game 20yo 90kg (ie skinny)
gibbs - 31st game 19yo, 82kgs (skinny)
cloke - 35th game, 23 yo, 105kgs (mature body - woohoo)
russell - 38th game, 21yo, 97kgs (mature body - thats 2)
setanta - 42nd game, 25yo, 100kgs (mature body - that makes 3!)
murphy 45th game, 20yo 80kgs (ie skinny, semi mature at best)

Again there is a discrepancy in age the pies have 3/8 players 20 or under, one of which is 97kgs whereas the blues have 7/11 who are sub 20, 2 of which are 97kgs (hamspon/kreuzer). Brown at 195cm and 97kgs competes ok for a KP defender - kreuzer/hampson who are 200/201cm and 97kgs are significantly undersized for the ruck and are getting smashed.''

Taking the above into account, how can you say that we are the same as collingwood and its just shit coaching/tactics?

I think talk of comparing Ratts to Pagan is pure folly...


IMO opinion I hope Ratts takes on the path in which Mickan has taken with my beloved Glenelg Tigers, and that is this

1st Year, evaluate the list, run the kids, look at the old blokes...
2nd Year, more games for the kids, make a stand with senior blokes..improve a position or 3
3rd Year, the Kids are getting to 50 games, the seniors know the plan, fitness base is in, finish in the 8
4th Year, Finals and deep into them...

It's his first year coaching. Reports from various people say Ratts' footy brain is amongst the best they have seen. The kids are inexperienced, we have the youngest list average at 22.9 years, and the lowest average games average at 57.4.

Where the window comes into play is when you have the majority of the list averaging well over 50 games. ATM Carlton is sitting 1st on the list with 17 blokes to have played less the 50 games. Brisbane have the same BUT they also have 13 blokes to have played 100 or more compared to our 7. The teams with the most blokes over 50 odd games are St Kilda, Sydney, Fremantle, Hawthorn, W Bulldogs, Port Adel, Melbourne, Geelong
& Collingwood. Fair to say except Melbourne and the shitehouse Freo, all finals teams...If Carlton get to the games experience like those sides and perform like Freo & Melbourne then I'd be up in arms.

But if Ratts does not show any improvement from this season to the next and then to the next then questions need to be asked ala Wallace at the Tigers....

_________________
Go to http://www.snoutslouts.org/ for a look at the mighty GFC...