No Zantuck Pagan Told.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18051

Does anyone think this story would have gone away had Smorgon not commented?
It was a big story the moment Pagan opened his mouth.

camel · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:09 am

BlueWorld wrote:

Only one fair way over Pagan: back him or sack him

Quote:

Regardless of the merits of Zantuck as a draftee, such intervention from above does not make Carlton look a modern, cohesive club. The better clubs employ football departments to make decisions. They give authority to the people they employ, have confidence in them, and let them have their head.Carlton should bear in mind that it has created the perception of a "caretaker" coach who is constantly overruled and second-guessed, and that this could damage its chances of attracting high-quality officials.

Would Paul Roos or John Worsfold tolerate this kind of interference? The question is its own answer. AFL coaches, for all their petty differences, share an empathy and universal belief that the senior coach should be allowed, within reason, to call the shots.

For Graham Smorgon and his board, which is likely to face an imminent challenge, there is only one fair way to handle Pagan: Back him, or sack him.

Another cheery article about this, and, no, it's not about Fev.

Sham Blues marriage needs divorce
http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,865 ... 11,00.html

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

I am not a Pagan supporter.

However, the Board should not get involved in football department decisions.

The Board had the opportunity to sack Denis, they almost did it but they chose not to, either because they didn't have the balls or because the AFL became involved.

Denis Pagan is entitled to be treated with respect by his employer - the Carlton Football Club. Either let him do his job or sack him.

No other club is as disfunctional as Carlton at the moment.

No other club would allow their adminstrators to overrule the head coach.

Pagan has thrown down the gauntlet to the Board - either support me & let me function or get rid of me.

The Board can't possibly make a decision on Pagan because they can't agree amongst themselves about who should actually be on the Board.

Smorgon constantly tells the media its a big lovefest at the Blues. But the next minute we hear that he wants Diggins & Valmorbida gone from his Board. He plays the media beautifully by undermining these 2 board members at every opportunity.

Whilst I despair at what has become of our once great club - I know which of the 2 people involved in this latest spat I believe & that's Denis by a mile.

CK95 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:17 am

You've got to hand it to Zantuck, never played a senior game for Carlton but he's precipitated a @#$%&! up already :lol:

Agree with this call The Duke:

The Duke wrote:

The interview yesterday, pagan never said the BOARD wouldn't let him, he was just TOLD ZANTUCK couldn't be recruited.

Then Smorgan gets his back up

.

I could be wrong but I don't think I heard Pagan actually mention the board & he could have just been meaning the MC. Either way though I still think he's ballsed up massively by having a sook to the media - & as another poster pointed out it's out of character.

Personally I don't have an issue with a board having a say in PSD picks such as Zantuck. Just as we didn't have a prioblem with them over ruling the Gardiner prospect.

On a side note did anyone hear Andy Maher on SEN this morningâ€¦reckons Smorgan has a board dinner organised at his place for tonightâ€¦& Pagan has been asked to come over before the dinner for a meeting???

Ockham's Razor · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:27 pm **Posts:** 1689

Dinner tonight at Smorgo's for 30 influential Carlton people, including entertainment! They could be roasting DP!

CK95 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:24 am

But it's not Friday...

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18051

But if the MC actually voted against Zantuck, why should it be made public.
These issues are private matters within the Carlton Football Club. We owe nothing to Ty Zantuck.
He was given an opportunity to train with us. Thats it!

We are the Uncle Arthur of the AFL.

Carlton God · **Joined:** Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:39 pm **Posts:** 487

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

Carlton God wrote:

Elwood Blues1 wrote:

Its an absurd situation when everyone knows Brett Ratten is the coach in waiting....it will delay the development of our younger players and stifle the progress of the club having Pagan masquerading as senior coach.....

I have a few questions, any of you may answer, you know I think you people have great insight and are very astute football followers :wink:

1. Can you tell us what position we'd be in if Pagan wasn't coach? How much better would Fevola, Scotland, Stevens, Whitnall, Thornton, Walker, Simpson, OhAilpin be for example?

2. Which young players careers has Pagan destroyed? LIvingston? Sporn?

3. Russell's still only 19, if Pagan wasn't there would he be being talked about as the next Daniel Kerr?

4. Where would the improvement have come from that would have got us those 6 or 7 wins in 2005 and 2006 with another coach? or is Pagan that bad we probably would have won 12 or 13?

You must be gagging on your tongue..... :wink:

Ok I'll bite....I 'll give you Fev as a success story courtsey of Pagan although with present events I might want to review that comment.
Stevens?.....isnt the player he was at Port...has been made to play with injuries and lost interest.....no cigar on that one..

Scotland....more about opportunity playing at a weaker club, I also think Scotland has matured which is credit to him rather than Pagan.

Simpson and Setanta I will credit Barry Mitchell...you know the bloke who lives on the opposite side of the ground to Denis.....

Thornton and Russell wanted out so I dont see that as a glowing endorsement of the footy dept and Denis..

Russell the next Daniel Kerr.....nice kid is JR and I would luv to see him be the next Kerr but I think thats aiming a tad high at this stage...

AW has progressed nicely but i think DOA is the one you need to ask about Pagans hand in that development.....

Denis recycled when he should have rebuilt, we got a wizard cup and he got a contract extension...I like others agreed to him being re-signed so I wont be calling myself astute..he fooled me like a few others..

I'll give you a 2/10 for that effort, very weak.

Rhys26 · **Joined:** Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:12 am **Posts:** 1730

Blue Vain wrote:

But if the MC actually voted against Zantuck, why should it be made public.
These issues are private matters within the Carlton Football Club. We owe nothing to Ty Zantuck.
He was given an opportunity to train with us. Thats it!

We are the Uncle Arthur of the AFL.

BV,

It was the board that voted against Zantuck not the MC.
One of our playing leaders openly told us that the playing group wanted Zantuck but the board overruled.

Mordan · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:56 am

Carlton God wrote:

I'll give you a 2/10 for that effort, very weak.

And yet you didn't manage to counter a single one of his points.

Carlton God · **Joined:** Tue Jun 07, 2005 10:39 pm **Posts:** 487

Mordan wrote:

Carlton God wrote:

I'll give you a 2/10 for that effort, very weak.

And yet you didn't manage to counter a single one of his points.

The stupidity of those statements dont warrant a response. Lets face it, around TC it's fashionable to Pagan bash. If Ratten was coaching us in 2006 and Simpson's 2006 was as good as his 2005, you lot would all be saying "wow Ratts is getting heaps out of Simpson, he's just starting to show his potential, pretty good for pick 45, YAY Ratts!".

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:15 am

The age article is the best I've seen from Niall. I think the important thing in this latest saga is that it will bring the board debacle to a head quickly.

It's more proof that the coach and board are as divided as ever, and a new board will either back or sack the coach. I prefer the back option as it's too close to the season to change horses now.

We can change the board without too much turmoil amongst the playing group.

Smorgan and his crew are dithering fools, if the coach needs to go, he has to go following the proper process and not starved in isolation.

Sergeant.Blue · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:32 am

TheGame wrote:

blue-insider wrote:

"Let's get rid of him" What a stupid post.
What great plan do you have in mind???

'Sack Pagan and move on', I know it's mind blowing and a little over your head but just try and take the most you can from it.

Tell me, tell all of us. Is there a better qualified coach available?

At a guess - your stupid reply will be something along the line of "anyone would be better".
Mind blowing stuff. Take what you can from it.

CK95 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:37 am

Blue Vain wrote:

But if the MC actually voted against Zantuck, why should it be made public.
These issues are private matters within the Carlton Football Club. We owe nothing to Ty Zantuck.
He was given an opportunity to train with us. Thats it!

We are the Uncle Arthur of the AFL.

Yeah agree...or Colin Carpenter :wink:

anfield · **Joined:** Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:47 pm **Posts:** 580

Smorgon is an idiot but do we really want a Zantuck at our club now that Fevola is single again? Zantuck has blown it at 2 clubs and frankly Pagan and recycled players has not been a recipe for success at Carlton has it? The Board has laid down criteria recruitment; no one over 24 or likely to play 100 games. Im sorry but is Zantuck the good a player to have caused all this drama? Unbelieveable! Pagan had had his own way for 4 seasons.. Its time he was pulled up. Also its stupid of Niall to compare us with with Sydney or West Coast coaches's. Theyve won premierships in the last 2 years and have had sustained success, denis hasnt.

ADP · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:39 am

kingkerna wrote:

Duke I would get my back up also if the coach goes to the media over this issue, however GS shouldn't have gone to the media to deny the story that just gives it legs. Both in the wrong.

Which probably goes a long way to capturing the realtionship between the board, the footy dept and the coach.

Going back a few monts, Denis was told that he wasn't wanted and all agreed to part ways as long as the money was paid. Carlton asked the AFL to underwrite the bill - they said no. Ever since then it has been one drama after the next in a hopeless situation whereby all parties at the club want Pagan out (including Pagan) but there is no money with which to do it.

What is most remarkable is that from being a "behind closed doors" situation for the club to deal with, it became quite an obvious situation through various incidents since the end of the season (just log on to the Age website for Caroline Wilson's section to read the sort of behaviour that I'm alluding to). Now, it is open slather with all parties positioning themselves against one another and it has degenrated into public tit for tat.

In my view, Pagan wants out, and fast. He wants his money and is going to hold the club to ransom for it. Unfortunately for Carlton, this appears to be with a "regardless of the cost" attitude. With 3 months before season proper, losing a coach and staring down the barrel at another huge slump in membership, sponsorship, confidence, etc, seems to not be bothering DP right now.

The "Club" also want him out fast so they can get on with it and install Barry Mitchell but they can't afford it (why he's still there after what happened tells you more about the relationship between the board and DP than anything else).

Classic catch 22 that requires immediate action and in all honesty, probably a spill of ALL positions in the football department and baord.

But we know at this stage, that's impossible, so concentrate on finding the money to pay out Denis otherwise you can write off the next two seasons effective immediately.

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 11:42 am

Headcutter wrote:

Why would you trust Pagans judgement - he has coached us to our worst results in the history of the club - He seems to love rejects and what could he possibly see in Zantuck - The bloke is too slow, not tall enough, kicks abhorantly and has had the wrong attitude around his previous clubs. At least Cloke has the unknown element to him and there is a 50:50 chance that he may turn out to be a handy pick up.. If we had drafted Zantuck it would have been a massive step backwards.

I dont like Pagan and I dont like or respect the board but on this occassion I applaud the board. As for Pagan his amazing reveleation substantiates my belief that in fact he is trying to destabilize the board. He is a toxic weed that needs to be watched very very closely.

Well done board

SPOT ON

Pagan has no idea about recruiting and someone should be hobbling him

Problem is it shouldn't be the board.

The coach should NEVER have final say on recruitments. It should be in the hands of the Match Committee..... or someone like Felching.

Pagan, Ratten, John Worsfold.... who ever... they should never have FINAL say in recruitment.

Good on the board that theyr'e learning that lesson... NOW they just have to set up a PROPER system that supports this long-term

blueboy8 · **Joined:** Fri Mar 04, 2005 1:13 pm **Posts:** 972

blue-insider wrote:

TheGame wrote:

blue-insider wrote:

"Let's get rid of him" What a stupid post.
What great plan do you have in mind???

'Sack Pagan and move on', I know it's mind blowing and a little over your head but just try and take the most you can from it.

Tell me, tell all of us. Is there a better qualified coach available?

At a guess - your stupid reply will be something along the line of "anyone would be better".
Mind blowing stuff. Take what you can from it.

I'll take John Longmire in a heart beat. Sydney might not have the best team on paper, but you wont see a more dedicated team then this they dont recruit flower.

Speakers · **Joined:** Fri Jun 10, 2005 10:19 pm **Posts:** 1105

Quote:

The board obviously isn't comfortable with him and have to keep interfering. This highlights he is not the right man for the job and or the board does not have the right people in place to run the club.

In a nutshell well done Surrey.

The Duke · **Posted:** Thu Dec 14, 2006 12:05 pm

The Tyrant wrote:

Headcutter wrote:

Why would you trust Pagans judgement - he has coached us to our worst results in the history of the club - He seems to love rejects and what could he possibly see in Zantuck - The bloke is too slow, not tall enough, kicks abhorantly and has had the wrong attitude around his previous clubs. At least Cloke has the unknown element to him and there is a 50:50 chance that he may turn out to be a handy pick up.. If we had drafted Zantuck it would have been a massive step backwards.

I dont like Pagan and I dont like or respect the board but on this occassion I applaud the board. As for Pagan his amazing reveleation substantiates my belief that in fact he is trying to destabilize the board. He is a toxic weed that needs to be watched very very closely.

Well done board

SPOT ON

Pagan has no idea about recruiting and someone should be hobbling him

Problem is it shouldn't be the board.

The coach should NEVER have final say on recruitments. It should be in the hands of the Match Committee..... or someone like Felching.

Pagan, Ratten, John Worsfold.... who ever... they should never have FINAL say in recruitment.

Good on the board that theyr'e learning that lesson... NOW they just have to set up a PROPER system that supports this long-term

So sack him!! That's the solution to all our problems then the board should just pay him out and move on.

"They can't!!" I hear you cry - if they had balls they can do whatever they want. In other words, they're not the right board, so they need to be sacked. The new board, if it's the right board, will fix all the problems.

No Zantuck Pagan Told.

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