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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:33 pm 
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Ken Hands
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I believe Pagan deserves 1 more year, put it simply to him that if we don't finish 14th or higher then he's gone ... anyone in his shoes would have gone through the same thing, I don't believe its a coaching issue, but we have to improve for next year.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:46 pm 
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Bert Deacon
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My issue with the Brown deal is the choice of assistants. I am not sure of the coaching credentials of Diesel, Ratten, Bradley, complemented by Sticks and Gleeson in charge of the football dept. The set up stinks of the dark days from the Elliot era.

We fought very hard to break up the boys club, and although times are desperate lets us not take our eyes of the big picture. Another year of Pagan may well be the lesser of the two evils if the choice of assistants is non negotiable component of the deal.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:52 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Absolute schmozzle. The reveiw committee should have presented the various option and recommendations available to the club and a decision one way or the other should have been made. Now the club looks to be indecivise and divivided......................... which we probably are.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:52 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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I haven't read the whole thread....what's "the Brown deal"?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:53 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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my two cents wrote:
My issue with the Brown deal is the choice of assistants. I am not sure of the coaching credentials of Diesel, Ratten, Bradley, complemented by Sticks and Gleeson in charge of the football dept. The set up stinks of the dark days from the Elliot era.

We fought very hard to break up the boys club, and although times are desperate lets us not take our eyes of the big picture. Another year of Pagan may well be the lesser of the two evils if the choice of assistants is non negotiable component of the deal.


I'd rather take the dark old days of success and premierships over the last few years. :wink:

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:56 pm 
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Serge Silvagni
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TheGame wrote:
my two cents wrote:
My issue with the Brown deal is the choice of assistants. I am not sure of the coaching credentials of Diesel, Ratten, Bradley, complemented by Sticks and Gleeson in charge of the football dept. The set up stinks of the dark days from the Elliot era.

We fought very hard to break up the boys club, and although times are desperate lets us not take our eyes of the big picture. Another year of Pagan may well be the lesser of the two evils if the choice of assistants is non negotiable component of the deal.


I'd rather take the dark old days of success and premierships over the last few years. :wink:



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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 12:59 pm 
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Ken Hands
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The fact that the sheep are bleating so hard for Pagan to be sacked just confirms for me more than ever its a bad idea.

Pagan will be sacked coz the board are desperate and insecure and need to be seen as doing something.

and Hawthorn appointed Clarkeson because they thought Wallace and Eade would come knocking their door down, they didn't. Clarkeson also got the go ahead to trade any player he wanted for draft picks - our board wouldn't allow that because they are desperate for wins to save their own arses.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:01 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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TheGame wrote:
my two cents wrote:
My issue with the Brown deal is the choice of assistants. I am not sure of the coaching credentials of Diesel, Ratten, Bradley, complemented by Sticks and Gleeson in charge of the football dept. The set up stinks of the dark days from the Elliot era.

We fought very hard to break up the boys club, and although times are desperate lets us not take our eyes of the big picture. Another year of Pagan may well be the lesser of the two evils if the choice of assistants is non negotiable component of the deal.


I'd rather take the dark old days of success and premierships over the last few years. :wink:

The days when we appointed a Barassi or Parkin to turn this club around and not a Jesaulenko. :wink:

Cronies and I'm glad the board didn't cave into Brown's demands just for the sake of change. I just hope the delay in making a decision is because we're trying to find a more qualified coach in the next week.

A better move than have a coaching panel which is just a re-union of the 1995 season and made up of Carlton people. :roll:

Brown has no right to dictate who is coach and his support should be unconditional.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:14 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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JuzzCarlton wrote:
TheGame wrote:
my two cents wrote:
My issue with the Brown deal is the choice of assistants. I am not sure of the coaching credentials of Diesel, Ratten, Bradley, complemented by Sticks and Gleeson in charge of the football dept. The set up stinks of the dark days from the Elliot era.

We fought very hard to break up the boys club, and although times are desperate lets us not take our eyes of the big picture. Another year of Pagan may well be the lesser of the two evils if the choice of assistants is non negotiable component of the deal.


I'd rather take the dark old days of success and premierships over the last few years. :wink:

The days when we appointed a Barassi or Parkin to turn this club around and not a Jesaulenko. :wink:

Cronies and I'm glad the board didn't cave into Brown's demands just for the sake of change. I just hope the delay in making a decision is because we're trying to find a more qualified coach in the next week.

A better move than have a coaching panel which is just a re-union of the 1995 season and made up of Carlton people. :roll:

Brown has no right to dictate who is coach and his support should be unconditional.


Sounds like Fraser is trying to fix the mess that the club has become since your boy has been in charge.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:17 pm 
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Laurie Kerr
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I posted this almost 3 weeks ago. I dare say they have now 'privately interviewed' the other candidates (McKenna/Pyke/Longmire/Harvey etc).........all of whom are involved with teams playing finals. Could this be the 'real reason' for the one week delay???

I am all for the old Carlton crew to come back and return this club back to where it used to be.


Baggers wrote:
Does anyone know the where-abouts of Mark Harvey today? There is talk about that he is in town and he ain't here to visit family and friends.

If talk is true, he is meeting with some Carlton 'people' about taking over from Denis for the 2007 season. :o

The contract pay-out to Denis would be funded 'privately' and thus not affecting the recent cash injection from the AFL.

Is kennyhunter on-line? Perhaps he may know something.

I am not even sure I would like Harvey as coach, although Freo seems to have turned itself around since he arrived.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:20 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Brown is not dictating anything - he has apparently made an offer that solves a problem for the Club. If he is coming up with the funds to do so he is fully entitled to put conditions on it (Recall the thread about what conditions Pratt may be able to put on any funds he so provided). Think of it the other way - if you were putting big funds in wouldn't you only do it if changes were made that you agreed with?

The Club can agree or otherwise - its up to the Directors.

If the Brown story is true, then good on him for at least caring and putting his dough on the table. If its not then so be it.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:21 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Baggers wrote:
I posted this almost 3 weeks ago. I dare say they have now 'privately interviewed' the other candidates (McKenna/Pyke/Longmire/Harvey etc).........all of whom are involved with teams playing finals. Could this be the 'real reason' for the one week delay???

I am all for the old Carlton crew to come back and return this club back to where it used to be.


Baggers wrote:
Does anyone know the where-abouts of Mark Harvey today? There is talk about that he is in town and he ain't here to visit family and friends.

If talk is true, he is meeting with some Carlton 'people' about taking over from Denis for the 2007 season. :o

The contract pay-out to Denis would be funded 'privately' and thus not affecting the recent cash injection from the AFL.

Is kennyhunter on-line? Perhaps he may know something.

I am not even sure I would like Harvey as coach, although Freo seems to have turned itself around since he arrived.


Fremantle will at least make the second week of the finals so if we're waiting for the new coach's team to be out of the finals it would be at least a 2 week delay.

Guy McKenna anyone?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:22 pm 
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Laurie Kerr

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Warby wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread....what's "the Brown deal"?


Someone posted last night that Fraser Brown was willing to pay out the rest of Pagan's contract...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:24 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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Lucky there is even a Fraser Brown willing to help, conditional or not. 1.2m "profit" is a lot of memberships and a lot of say in where his money goes. Why can't Ratts Braddles and Diesel assist? sound as good as Trout, Libba, Daniher and Dempsey.
I want to see the Brown Dog jump out of his earth mover run behind Pagan in the corridor at PP and tackle him to the ground and Sticks and Bear, yell BAAALLLL LLLL. and Smorgo bend forward and raise the arms.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:25 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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-Ox- wrote:
Warby wrote:
I haven't read the whole thread....what's "the Brown deal"?


Someone posted last night that Fraser Brown was willing to pay out the rest of Pagan's contract...


In a large brown paper bag :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:27 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Brown is the only one who refused to squeal when the club was being done for salary cap breaches and now he's willing to stump up the cash to pay out Pagan. IMO he's well within his rights to offer the money conditionally.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:30 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Bookie wrote:
Lucky there is even a Fraser Brown willing to help, conditional or not. 1.2m "profit" is a lot of memberships and a lot of say in where his money goes.


It'll be less than half that amount.

Whether we sack Pagan or not we'll pay him the same amount (although hopefully less if an arrangement can be agreed upon).

The amount needed is what it costs to pay Mitchell/another coach.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:32 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko
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I'd give up GWS, that has been mentioned at least 4 or 5 times in the thread, very few seem to understand it.





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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:33 pm 
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Robert Walls
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Ockham's Razor wrote:
Danny

Quote:
sounds very reasonable OR unless
the Board had decided on a set path and began to 'leak' that out to people (ie Kenny, EB, Synbad) and then changed their mind sbecause they were too scared of the ramifications of their decision.

If what you say is right I am fine with the whole thing - quite happy for Denis to stay on in fact.

If the latter though then the board is gutless and right now the last thing we need is a gutless Baord to scared to do what it wants to do for fear of the protest.


It is possible also that a few board members pre-meeting, thought that the decision was over the line and then started leaking to others, got into the meeting last night, realised it wasn't "over the line".

ie They leaked too early when they should have held on :wink:



Agree with the points you have made on this issue. For me, the above is the main problem ... that the Board leak things to the press in half baked fashion, before decisions have actually been made and confmed, then come across as nervous nellies in the face of totally predictable public reaction.

Surely even blind deaf and dumb Freddy would not need to think very hard to realise that he should expect exactly this reaction in the media, and from supporters?

I am not at all surprised that the majority of supporters ruinging the Club would be saying keep Pagan. As has been pointed out, the majority of supporters don't discuss all the issues related to training, match day tactics etc as they are on here.

In my opinion, Pagan needs to go, and that is more paramount than getting the "optimum" replacement, given that selection of an optimum replacement is likely to be highly subjective in any case. We have seen that Mitchell does have imagination and can develop young players, and communicate with them ... all of which, in my opinion, are major issues with Pagan's approach, and needing urgent redress.

Also, as someone else stated, the main issue with the payout would be that the $1.2M is most likely required up front rather than over the next 2 years (hence the Club needs cash up front, which we know they don't have), as well as some extra money required for any new football department coaches.


Last edited by Headplant on Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2006 1:36 pm 
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Geoff Southby
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Jarusa wrote:
I'd give up GWS, that has been mentioned at least 4 or 5 times in the thread, very few seem to understand it.


I understand he's clearing all our debt, right?

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