Yes but will they be bone fide AFL footballers.?
Will they win a premiership?
Will they become greats?

or will they just be making up the numbers?

If they have a problem with Mathews they can go and have a chat to Voss or Brown.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

They were very comfortable chatting amongst themselves.

The big divide is well and truely in place at the Lions from what I saw.

.........for $300,000 or $400,000 a year, you can yell at me day and night. No problem here. For that kind of money, I will keep my mouth shut and train my guts out even if I'm verbally abused along the way. I wonder what some of these so called 'young leaders' at Brisbane will do when their careers are over and they are working 9 to 5 for $50,000 a year, yet still receiving a verbal pasting from the boss becuase they are still to grow up? Same goes for Fev, Lance and a host of others. They are not in the real world.

Having said that, there is no doubt the kids of today are more likely to pee in their pants if Pagan, Malthouse or Matthews were to raise their voice. I'm generalising, but they are more 'precious' than guys from past era's. Not all, but most.

My only criticism of Pagan is that he is being paid well in excess of $600,000 and for that amount of money I expect at bit more accountability on his behalf. A bit more ingenuity. Example, and I'm the first to admit that I am not a fitness guru, but some of the boys caught up with a few of the North boys three weeks ago, They exchanged information on the training regimes of both clubs. Our boys were absolutely astonished when they compared the amount of running and sprint drills that we are doing at this time of year with those at North. This also backs up another incident mid season when the Dees trained at Optus a couple of times. Some of the boys watched the Dees train and couldn't believe how 'light' the training was in comparison.

Does this explain our great pre season form and the then capitulation mid season? Does it also explain how perhaps Pagan is yet to 'change' his ways to catch up with modern footy? You must remember that Pagan came across with his entourage of Elshaug and Mulkearns. Both are still with him. He has added Libba who is a Pagan 'yes' man. Mitchell survived from the previous administration. As you can see, it's a steady as you go mentality at the top. No one to question or rock the boat. That's my only gripe. A lack of innovation on the track and on game day, caused I believe by Pagan surrounding himself with 'yes' men.

Now, Pagan may have the last laugh and get us back up there with his conservative approach. I'll be happy to see it but at this stage I think we are well behind the likes of Sydney, West Coast and Adelaide. Adelaide are a prime example of how a fresh and lateral thinking coach can dramatically change a footy team without slashing the list or without languishing at the bottom for 5 years. And to makes thinks more evident, the coach is no fresh faced, wet behind the ears junior to the coaching ranks. He is well into his late 40's yet he is innovative as well as being prepared to think laterally. His use of Charlie Walsh this year has been remarkable. Whilst our guys are pounding the bitumen, the Adelaide guys are mixing their training regime up with bike riding for long distances in the Adelaide hills. As a result, we have Waite with severe stress fractures of his shins. Bentick was almost in the same boat a few weeks back. So on and so forth. Come round 6 or 7 nexy year, we will have run our race whilst the Crows will only be starting theirs.

Just on the question of "baking".

In my opinion, it's not whether a bake happens, it will, sometimes there is no other way to get a message across. We've seen the best coaches give bakes that would make a bakery in Times Square catch fire on New Years' Eve. Roos, Pagan, Matthews, Sheedy, Malthouse, etc etc., they can all do it. We all do it as fans, we all let rip.

In my opinion, it's how these guys take the bake. Do they use it as an opportunity to improve or do they take it as personal criticism and that no-one is allowed to criticise. Are some of these people over-sensitive and take a bake as a personal insult? IMO, if you are of good character, you want someone who tells you how it is, if you've put in a poor performance, you want someone who is not afraid to tell you so. If you are of strong character, you will want to improve because of it. If you're weak, like some of the characters that have left our club already, then you'll only take positive comments on board. "You played well today Campo, you had 25 cheap kicks, that's pretty good", "You took 8 uncontested marks playing as a loose man Lance, well done", "You kicked 4 behinds, at least you had 4 shots on goal Brendan, well done".

If our players respond to these sorts of softly-softly comments, then the moral fibre and character of our football club is disintegrating.

WRT Pagan, yes, his training methods need an overhaul. Maybe he's just using it to teach hard work and a good work ethic. Having said that, fitness methods like long bike rides are better than smashing up your legs and feet and getting stress fractures, especially on hard summer ground.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Comfortable amongst themselves?

A public place,a restaurant 4 tables from you,so much that you hear their conversation.And they were airing their dirty laundry?

Perhaps the character of those kids indicate why the demise last year?

Sounds like the same idle complaining that we have had.Except ours was from our senior players?

Too easy to blame the coaches,but it has always been so from those of poor character!

We had a chance to bring fresh blood around Pagan for next year and we chose in all our 'wisdom' not to do it.
Personally i never 'got ' that decision...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

As I said before, I was quite astonished, but I rationalized it by thinking maybe they don't expect to be recognized in Brisbane. The restaurant was close to empty, but even still they weren't keeping their voices down. And there was plenty more, other than the above, they were talking about.

It did remind me of the things I'd heard about Carlton players being vocal about their coach in public. Made me wonder if it's quite common.

verbs, I've heard AFL players bitch about their coaches before. But I'd imagine it's no less common than regular people bitching about their bosses when they go out for a coffee or a beer together.

Unless you're feeling really, really good about yourselves (ie the Sydney playing group who got rid of their old boss who they hated... interestingly enough he's now loved by his new employees... and now find themselves with World's Best Bloke as coach and a premiership cup) I reckon it's commonplace.

People bitch all the time, about everything. Just look at an average day on TC.

No need to get bitchy!

Good thoughts Preacher.

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Forgotten, but not gone

4 to 6 weeks out from the end of the season, the whisper was very strong that both Elshaug and Libba were gone. The board wanted to make a statement out loud that you copuldn't end up last without warranting some change - even if, it was only creating change for the sake of it. I mean, even if you replaced a couple of assistants, would anything really change? The head coach, being of a strong staunch characyer will always rule the roost. Does anyone really think that Pagan would listen to two new assistants that he didn't get to choose nor that he wanted?

Obviously, when push came to shove, Pagan won out. The board backed down. So, we end up last, and we have no change amongst the coaching staff and little change on the list. Would this have happened at any other club? St.Kilda ends up fourth yet they still turn over two assistants. Carlton and Collingwood end up last and second last and there are no changes. Am I missing something?

Paralysed with fear.

see , i think a change to the assistants would have destabilised the complacency and hopefully have forced the new coaching staff to think outside of the comfort factor.

We couldnt do anything about Denis once we signed him but you had to send a message out.
I believe the board should have done more with the playing list too.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

In Denis we trust.

Or is that...?

iN Deniswe tru...st!!&%!

I dont know about the rumour that those guys were gone but to answer your question, Yes, you are missing something. but I am not sure what it is.

For a Club to come so low and make hardly any changes is unheard of. Maybe they think we were very unlucky, despite a low injury count of what, Thornton and French and a bit of Livingston. Maybe they think instability would hurt the membership and stuff like that, but who's to say we wouldn't have got more memberships by pissing off Libba? Maybe they think that Camporeale was such a destabilising influence that everyone will be happier now, and perform?

You are missing something but so am I preacher. I still cant believe we're going into this season with the same list less one of our best 22, Campo. To come last and have that miniscule change, say in: McLean, Murphy, Out: Campo and some other bloke, is hard to accept.

I am a big lover of conspiracy theories and I used to think that a lot of players were being played out of position - Houlihan back, Teague last line of defence, Wiggins on the field. Maybe they are just going back to playing to our strengths next year? I know this sounds ridiculous but so is the idea that you dont change coaches or players when you come last.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

I reckon you're spot on. The club is bigger than anyone, and if the club don't like Pagan's method's or his assistants or the way he goes about things they should tell him, they shouldn't back down to anyone. The only other change that I see as positive is Saddington, I'm sure he's not the answer or anything, but I don't think he'll make us worse.

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Forgotten, but not gone

................and to think we sacked Percy Jones at the end of 1980 when we ended up 3rd. Have we gone in the opposite direction with our philosophy or what?

It certainly isn't the Carlton I grew up following, but hey, my Dad's dad followed them, my Dad did too, the thing he finds hard is that even during the 21 year drought from 47 to 68, the Mighty Blues were competitive, now we're not.

Welcome to the modern game I guess.

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Forgotten, but not gone

A few points to consider there. Firstly, the club admitted that we were spending less than most (if not all) other clubs in key areas such as development and recruiting. The club has increased resources in both areas. They have also improved the facilities available to the players (gym, lecture theatre, etc). So I think the club has made some changes and I think that will continue to occur as the club improves its finances.

In regards to changing coaches, I think that finishing last is largely irrelevant. We all know the background to why we are there, so the club should make the decision based on the development of the younger players, who will be the future of the club. I didn't see a lot of the footy this year, so I'm not sure whether this is the case or not, but I must admit I also was surprised that no changes were made.