Menzel cleared, Everitt 3-4 weeks

Dominator_7 · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:41 pm

Blue Boys wrote:

Take it as you will, but Dr Larkins reckons bone bruising around the knee for some one who has had a knee reco should be more than 1 weeks rest. I'd be disappointed if we rushed him back considering we're out of finals contention.

Bye next week so he ll have 2 weeks rest before next game

emtwenty · **Joined:** Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:29 pm **Posts:** 7074

Larkins also declared that Menz had ruptured his LARS and was unable to have a traditional reco - all from sitting behind the glass behind the interchange bench. Both are incorrect.

Megaman · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:09 pm

If its bone bruising then he's not completely clear - but its best we push him on for that top 4 chance

TruBlueBrad · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 8:36 pm

Megaman wrote:

If its bone bruising then he's not completely clear - but its best we push him on for that top 4 chance

Who's suggesting we play him if there is bone bruising, or that we're a top 4 chance?

Rexy · **Joined:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:46 am **Posts:** 28227

both still have a chance at a full preseason so that's all that matters

camel · **Posted:** Sat Jul 19, 2014 10:39 pm

Rexy wrote:

both still have a chance at a full preseason so that's all that matters

Good news.

dane · **Joined:** Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 am **Posts:** 22357

Close them out now.

Synbad · **Posted:** Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:16 am

emtwenty wrote:

Larkins also declared that Menz had ruptured his LARS and was unable to have a traditional reco - all from sitting behind the glass behind the interchange bench. Both are incorrect.

Larkins is always the opposite to reality

ThePsychologist · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am **Posts:** 7893

Menzel has had a good year and progressed well. Importantly has got games under him. With shoulder and knee injuries in last few weeks now time for him to rest and fully recover and be ready for pre season.

Menzel needs to keep improving his running and endurance and a full pre season is hugely important and we will see the benefits in 2015. No point in him playing now.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:10 pm

ThePsychologist wrote:

Menzel has had a good year and progressed well. Importantly has got games under him. With shoulder and knee injuries in last few weeks now time for him to rest and fully recover and be ready for pre season.

Menzel needs to keep improving his running and endurance and a full pre season is hugely important and we will see the benefits in 2015. No point in him playing now.

Not having a go at you per se P just this idea (one I sometimes fall into) in a way captures the dangers of fear we have all re football (and perhaps life in general).

There is a wonderful book out there called Anti Fragile by Taleb (bloke who came up with the black swan theory).

In essence any system that is fragile is [REDACTED]. The trick is to build anti fragile systems (not robust systems but systems that strengthen through the testing, rather than simply enduring).

I think Carlton is a fragile system on all levels and nothing epitomises this like the idea a player should not play until he is trained up to play the following year (or rested during non event games etc etc...)

Notice this is not the same as playing someone when injured, rather it is an attempt to avoid injury (disaster) rather than embracing disaster with the attitude 'what doesn't kill me makes me stronger'.

It is silly when you think it through.

Take Menzel.

We fear his knee and so we fear every time he plays,, especially if there is no reason for him to play, (season is shot, etc) fearing the knee will go.

As a club we should say '@#$%&! that, Menzel, get out there and play, if your knee holds up great, if it doesn't stiff shit, someone else will step up.'

Think of that attitude, right through the whole club. '@#$%&! Judd, @#$%&! Murphy. Everyone plays, or doesn't and we get better with or without, we get better.'

Again this is different to resting a player who is really tired for a week or two and then bring him back. This is, 'Rest cos we fear you might hurt yourself.'

And meanwhile everyone knows they play because that's what they must do, play, get tested and get better, its why we pay them and its why they play.

Much stronger ethos, much stronger resilience to disaster, much stronger expectations,

rather than 'Troy, we're worried about that knee of yours, here's a soft cot, lie down and rest for a few months.'

Toughen the @#$%&! up Carlton!

ThePsychologist · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am **Posts:** 7893

Understand your point DB and a lot of it I agree with.

I'm looking at Menzel in isolation. His running ability & endurance isn't great although it's improved.

Has a history of injuries but at only 19 years old has got 15 games under belt this year. That's very good for his age and fitness levels.

IMO for his development it may well be better to give him a rest now, as usually kids of this age tire at this time of year, and make sure he is ready for a full pre season. I just believe that may be more of a benefit to him than getting a couple more games under him.

Anyway just my opinion and I get the impression they will keep playing him regardless. :wink:

dannyboy · **Posted:** Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:25 pm

I hope they do

and its the 'in isolation' that is one of the rotten bits at the heart of Carlton.

We need to get back to team, only team. Not stars. We're blinded by the stars while lost in the darkness of the footballing cosmos.

Menzel is just another player. play him.

If he gets injured, play someone else.

Punter22 · **Posted:** Wed Jul 23, 2014 6:18 pm

Spot on db

GWS · **Posted:** Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:03 pm

dannyboy wrote:

ThePsychologist wrote:

Menzel has had a good year and progressed well. Importantly has got games under him. With shoulder and knee injuries in last few weeks now time for him to rest and fully recover and be ready for pre season.

Menzel needs to keep improving his running and endurance and a full pre season is hugely important and we will see the benefits in 2015. No point in him playing now.

Not having a go at you per se P just this idea (one I sometimes fall into) in a way captures the dangers of fear we have all re football (and perhaps life in general).

There is a wonderful book out there called Anti Fragile by Taleb (bloke who came up with the black swan theory).

In essence any system that is fragile is [REDACTED]. The trick is to build anti fragile systems (not robust systems but systems that strengthen through the testing, rather than simply enduring).

I think Carlton is a fragile system on all levels and nothing epitomises this like the idea a player should not play until he is trained up to play the following year (or rested during non event games etc etc...)

Notice this is not the same as playing someone when injured, rather it is an attempt to avoid injury (disaster) rather than embracing disaster with the attitude 'what doesn't kill me makes me stronger'.

It is silly when you think it through.

Take Menzel.

We fear his knee and so we fear every time he plays,, especially if there is no reason for him to play, (season is shot, etc) fearing the knee will go.

As a club we should say '@#$%&! that, Menzel, get out there and play, if your knee holds up great, if it doesn't stiff shit, someone else will step up.'

Think of that attitude, right through the whole club. '@#$%&! Judd, @#$%&! Murphy. Everyone plays, or doesn't and we get better with or without, we get better.'

Again this is different to resting a player who is really tired for a week or two and then bring him back. This is, 'Rest cos we fear you might hurt yourself.'

And meanwhile everyone knows they play because that's what they must do, play, get tested and get better, its why we pay them and its why they play.

Much stronger ethos, much stronger resilience to disaster, much stronger expectations,

rather than 'Troy, we're worried about that knee of yours, here's a soft cot, lie down and rest for a few months.'

Toughen the @#$%&! up Carlton!

Nassim Taleb.

Great book and good application.

Big Kahuna Boot · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:16 am

..but the question is, is menzel really ready..?.. ....personally I think he has been 'gifted' some games, ditto crisps.. ....neither is fit enough.... ..personally I'd be having them start their pre'season early.. .... ..I think both have plenty of natural talent, what is holding them both back is entering the afl system with very low fitness bases.... ..both need to focus on building up their running capacity, because that is what will elevate their games the most..

..also, while I agree with DB, I don't trust the afl system in regards to how quickly we bring back players from injury.. ..this is a competition issue, brought on by too low playing list size.. ..across the league there are clubs rushing back players, and/or pushing players through injury..

bmaurizio · **Joined:** Thu May 05, 2005 10:49 am **Posts:** 1623

Spoiler

Big Kahuna Boot wrote:

..but the question is, is menzel really ready..?.. ....personally I think he has been 'gifted' some games, ditto crisps.. ....neither is fit enough.... ..personally I'd be having them start their pre'season early.. .... ..I think both have plenty of natural talent, what is holding them both back is entering the afl system with very low fitness bases.... ..both need to focus on building up their running capacity, because that is what will elevate their games the most..

..also, while I agree with DB, I don't trust the afl system in regards to how quickly we bring back players from injury.. ..this is a competition issue, brought on by too low playing list size.. ..across the league there are clubs rushing back players, and/or pushing players through injury..

Yep agree, spot on BKB. The Club has to do the right thing for the well begin of lads and team structure
Obviously they' re positive media hype for the Club every time on the field.
However proper development is crucial and there are no short cuts.
This is a vital element that Lo Giudice and Coaching team must get right immediately, no compromises no room nor time for error.
Ciao

Dominator_7 · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 11:19 am

Both have shown enough this year to indicate that they re a part of our future.
No need to rush them back this year.
They, along with Kreuz and Walks (if they re not traded) should be cherry ripe to go Day 1 of Pre Season.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:39 pm

The future starts now...

or is it in the future....

when exactly?

ThePsychologist · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am **Posts:** 7893

dannyboy wrote:

The future starts now...

or is it in the future....

when exactly?

Whilst I agree with the premise of your comments DB each individual is different and their 'development' needs to be handled differently. For the benefit of both the club and Menzel he needs to work on his fitness and as soon as possible get it to AFL midfield level asap. Playing him injured or with the risk of getting injured when the games mean nothing makes no sense IMO. 15 games this year is a great result. There is a bigger benefit to the club having Menzel and Cripps fit and ready to go for 2015.

dane · **Joined:** Tue Mar 08, 2005 10:14 am **Posts:** 22357

TruBlueBrad wrote:

Megaman wrote:

If its bone bruising then he's not completely clear - but its best we push him on for that top 4 chance

Who's suggesting we play him if there is bone bruising, or that we're a top 4 chance?

whoooooooooooosh!

Menzel cleared, Everitt 3-4 weeks

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