Ashman was an elite rover. And kicked plenty of goals (over 350 I think)

I tossed up between Ashman, Hunter and Harmes and decided on Harmes for the 11th spot. Harmes was just a unique pocket dynamo that could do just about anything in the air at 5 foot 10. Strong around the hips and legs, genuine pace, awesome kick. Could have taken maybe Fev out, but Fev was a special full forward that would have broken our all time goal kicking tally if he pulled his head in and focused. (would probably be still playing)

I had Ashman as an accounting teacher, many years ago.

Just checked the Blueseum - Ashman is better ranked than I thought in goal kicking. Only 5 players above him. Clover, Jezza, Fev, Vallence, sticks. Kicked as many goals as Walls and more than Whitnall. Incredible record.

Rank Goals Kicked Player Average per game
1 738 Stephen Kernahan 2.94
2 722 Harry Vallence 3.54
3 575 Brendan Fevola 3.07
4 424 Alex Jesaulenko 1.66
5 396 Horrie Clover 2.69
6 370 Rod Ashman 1.57
7 367 Robert Walls 1.68
8 365 Ken Baxter 2.39
9 348 Lance Whitnall 1.61
10 341 Vin Gardiner 2.17

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I really don't want to get into this debate right now, for two reasons, very spoiled for choice and not having the guts to put my thoughts out there .

I have been going to the football since 1968, but in my formative years from around 6 years old to 12, I probably never appreciated what a great player Nicholls was.

I like a lot of the lists from you guys, Cratylus, Molly, Psych, Drewgirl.

Ashman is I agree very underrated, probably he is the last true rover we have had, very stiff not to win the 1981 Brownlow Medal, and kicked one of our time on third quarter goals in the 1981 Grand Final that got us to within 9 points at 3/4 time.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

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Looking back I definitely would include Simmo out of the current day players. We look at the past through rose coloured glasses.

Depends on your priorities. Players such as the Dominator went missing in too many games. Juddy and Simmo bust their guts out every game. Because they haven't won premierships for Carlton is not their fault it is a team and coach thing so they cannot be judged on that. And for sheer talent Fev at his best was totally unstoppable but how do you fit him in, because he is nice with kids?

Doesn't mean I want to drop anyone though.

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

My greatest ever Carlton player would have to be " Big Nick ".................My best ever Carlton player would have to be " Jezza "........................after that i would put a blanket over the rest as they were all magnificent and i wouldnt insult any of them by ranking one ahead of the rest.

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All my dangerous friends

Yep, couldn't have put it better.

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The problem with Socialism is, you eventually run out of other people's money.

Out of interest, for those who saw the team in the 60's and 70's, why don't any of you have Robert Walls in your list? It's a genuine question, as I've never seen him play apart from grainy 1970 grand final footage. But he was meant to be a great. And I'd have thought you could fit both Sticks and Walls in the list if you wanted
wanted. So why does Walls miss out?

And the other one I have to ask about is Syd Jackson. Does he cross anyone's mind when you put your list together if you saw him play?

Ashman was a gun and he's a nice bloke as well. I remember him on so many occasions getting us back into games and also the leader of our famous 3rd Quarter (Premiership Qtr) onslaughts in the 80's. They were great to watch from the Heatley stand at PP.

One of my all time favourites.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

Pretty easy task for posters around my age...at least I found it easy. Fitzpatrick, Johnston and Swan McKay unlucky to miss. No Judd. Better player at West Coast. I thought Diesel played his best footy at Carlton if you need a comparison.

Silvagni
Williams
Kernahan
Ratten
Hunter
Doull
Ashman
Bradley
Jesaulenko
Fevola
Koutoufides

I have Walls in my list, and ahead of Sticks too.

Syd Jackson was a good player, but not a great, imo. He was a good finals player too, but wouldn't figure in my top 20. As a small forward, I would have him equal with Betts, only because we didn't get a chance to see Betts in big late September finals.

1. Nicholls - easily, by far, our best ever. It's not even a question for me. Stature, talent, trailblazer, great under pressure, leadership, toughness, quantity........
2. Jezza - brilliant, also a great finals player, also great under pressure, played awesomely at full forward, CHF, forward pocket, HFF, ruck-rover, HBF, and BP.
3. Doull - enough said
4. Johnston
5. Crosswell
6. Walls
7. Bradley
8. Williams
9. Fitzpatrick
10. Kernahan
11. Silvagni (Jnr)

Unlucky: Kouta, Southby, Fev, Swan McKay, Ashman, Judd, Crane, and others....
The first three are really unmovable for me. If you asked me again tomorrow, then 4 through 11 might easily change..... (what can I say?)

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After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

You are fortunate to actually see Nichols play. He was one player I wanted to see on a playing field (and Croswell, Syd Jackson and Gary Crane)

My first venture out to Princes Park was in the Mid seventies - just living near the ground. the season was the one where Blight kicked that long goal on the siren - around 76 I think

I have 5 lists based on different criteria (this thread topic is just based on pure talent and feats on the ground).

1. Talent
2. Courage
3. Team player/Leadership
4. Performance under pressure and in big games/finals
5. Creativity

Only one Carlton player made all five criteria lists.

Guess who?

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I'd have Doull and Jezza on all those 5 criteria, and if anyone doubts Doull's creativity, I've never seen anyone go the spoil but actually direct the spoil to the teams advantage.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Well, Nicholls, Jezza, Doull, Johnston, Crosswell, and Walls should make all 5 of those lists, easily!

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After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

yes. in fact I heard Tony Shaw being interviewed and he said exactly that about Doull. He used to spoil to position or to the advantage of his team mates. Almost like a ruckman going up for a tap. Initially he thought it was a flukey spoil, then it kept happening year after year (lol)

We are blessed at Carlton. The number of genuine champions at our club over the years is just incredible.

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I could only squeeze one of your list in all five.

But then again I used a sort of Quantum mechanical or stochastic analytical approach to quantify the relative coefficients for each player in each criteria category.

It only took 3 years to write the computer program and crunch the numbers

This is a serious business - we wouldn't want any errors and see a Jamie Dunlop or Simon Verbeek slip into calculation.

I remember a beta simulation run last winter that spat out Pousinides as a better all round player than Southby.

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Ok, so for example, name any one of my 6 players and any one of your 5 criteria that doesn't apply to him. I'm only asking for just ONE of the 25 possible combinations.

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After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

throwing a blanket over a bunch of blokes is very insulting - in some countries its a felony offence

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I think only Jezza would cover the creativity criteria. Creativity is an interesting criteria because of interpretation. You can class a creative players in terms of footy smarts (like diesel) or an off the wall type, left field creative player (like Busostow)

Crosswell wouldn't make the team player/leadership criteria (and from memory this short coming may have been the reason Carlton didn't try hard to keep him when Barrassi left)

Doing natural instinctual things on the footy field (like Doull did) isn't the sort of creativity I mean.

Tuyouy type of creativity (where nobody seems to be able to predict where he will run, and whether he is trying to set himself up to have a long shot for goal, or just set it up for a team mate. Which is why the opposition seems to be confused when he gets the ball - perhaps that is crazy footy - I am not sure - there are many who couple insanity with creativity.)

(how did you calculate the 25 possible combinations?)

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Do I really have to explain basic multiplication to a guy who sprouts phrases like "stochastic analytical approach"??? 5 times 5 = 25....

If you really don't think Crosswell was an awesome leader and team player after 1969, you should watch the first half of the 1970 GF and the whole 1975 GF.

If you don't think Doull was creative (under any possible interpretation), then you just haven't watched enough of his games. Check out the 1978 game at Victoria Park (Jezza's first as coach).

Nicholls DEFINITELY had all 5 criteria in spades!!!! ("criteria" is the plural of "criterion", btw).

Wayne Johnston had talent to burn, courage that almost got him killed in many games, was the ultimate team player / leader, could not be questioned in big games (probably the best ever), and again, if you don't think he was creative, then you must be defining "creativity" differently to the rest of the population and all the dictionaries in the English speaking world.

Just have a rethink. You may have just made a little rash decision here......

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Never argue with idiots. They drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience!!!

After Monday and Tuesday, even the calendar says W T F .........
Visit http://fromthemoshpit.com/

'82 is the beginning of my real Carlton memories, so I can't really say much about anything prior to that, but:

1. Greg Williams - best vision in traffic and best long handball & short foot passing on any player I have ever seen.
2. Anthony Kououfides - who could take a game by the scruff of the neck like Kouta?
3. Wayne Johnston - see above, but usually saved it for the third quarter, and finals.
4. Southby - loved SoS, but Southby was the true Full Back of the Century IMO
5. Bruce Doull
6. Craig Bradley
7. Wayne Harmes
8. Stephen Kernahan
9. Brett Ratten
10. Chris Judd
11. Can't really separate Sheldon, Buckley and Ashman for that last spot.

Peter Bosustow was my hero, but in hindsight, ridiculously brilliant as he could be, I don't think he really did enough over his career to deserve a spot in the pantheon.

Some players from left field that probably don't get mentioned because they maybe weren't as high profile as the above, but when you look at them they were pretty impressive for what they brought to the club: Dean, Sexton, Justin Madden, David Rhys-Jones, Fevola.

Then there are the "if onlys" - the players that really could have been up there had their careers not been cut short for various reasons - Motley is one, and Ross Ditchburn could have been an absolute goal machine if not for that injury.

...a subjective decision is never rash

The standards are set. Sticks was a courageous player, but Hunter set the standard and so sticks misses out on the top 11 most courageous.

Creativity is set by Busustow and so Doull misses out (only just)

Lawrence Aungwin was a more creative player than Doull

That sort of thing

Bit like when you multiply 6 by 5, it's never personal

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