..Psych, have you been self-medicating again..?.. ..[and if yes, where's mine??].. ....Krooz has huge presence in the stoppages, and is well known for his bullocking work and his ability to clear a path for the mids.. ..and Krooz is definitely A-grade, he's had a huge set-back with the ACL during his early development.. ..it's a testament to how good he truely is [and you possibly realise on a subconcious level], which is why we judge him so critically, because we know how good he can be.. ..he's still recovering, most take time to get back to their best after a serious knee..

..also, let's not just rate the rucks and skip the mids this season.. ..our midfield set-ups were a joke, and Krooz always tried his best and worked his hardest.. ..how many mids can you say the same about this season, game in game out..?.. ..supposedly Cox was gone, past his best just a few years ago, now he's back to being the greatest ruck of all time.. ..no con-incidence that he's fully fit once again, with mids and midfield set-ups that actually all work together..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

..the concept has merit, but the extremist measures don't.. ..trade out quality to improve sure.. ..but we don't have enough quality to spare for speculative/potential gain.. ..and also the idea of trading out the best [krooz as ruck, murphy as mid, jamo as def] is counter-productive in my opinion.. ..i think the only surplus we have is our rucks, of the 3 i'd try Knockers, which is most difficult cos we re-signed him this year.. ..i think potentially Hammer is close enough 'to it', that i'd go another season with him.. ..Knockers is by far the 'softest' of the 3 and you can't consistently carry a soft ruck..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

and this is the issue on here. People take it personally.

From my point of view this is about improving the Club.

Just because we recruited these guys in the past doesn't mean it was right.

The simple fact is will it improve our list. IMO yes. Better players, more class and more room in the salary cap.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

Kruezer A Grade? Not IMO, not even close.

I'll try and give a hypothetical (approx)

List Out:

Kruezer for Caddy & Toy
Warnock for Pick 25
Hampson for Pick 30
Gone: Russell, Thornton, Bower, Curnow, Kerr, Joseph plus 2-3 more.

List In:

Caddy & Toy

Pick 11 - Jimmy Toumpas
Pick 25 - Rory Atkins
Pick 29 - Tim Sumner
Pick 30 - Jesse Lonergan
Pick 47 - Spencer White

Will Minson as a Free Agent
Mature Aged Ruckman through Rookie draft

Salary Cap room for Rivers, Goddard, Cloke, Chaplin etc.

As Ruckman we would have Minson, A Mature Aged, A young rookie, Casboult, Mitchell, Rowe. If we trade 2 ruckman (probable best scenario, thus deleting pick 25) we can add a Warnock to that list.

Joel Tippett is a talented Ruckman who I believe will be a late developer who we could get for nothing.

Maybe consider Pick 47 for Broc MaCauley, Jarrod Redden.

Now this is extreme and examples but would even part of this improve our list?

IMO clearing the just average players and topping up with A Grade or potential A grade players is the right thing.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

Yes, I'm OK with trading 1 ruckman but there's no sense in trading all 3.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

From AFL website the ruckmen in the finals

Jacobs HGT 203 WGT 102
Jolly 200 108
Sandilands 211 122
West 198 104
Hale 201 102
Goldstein 201 102
Mumford 199 108
Cox 203 106
NicNat 201 101

Kreuzer 200 101

The ruckmen of the 2 teams probably playing off in the GF Swans and Hawks are Hale and Mumford. Both are within a cm of Krooz. It is a myth he is not tall enough. Big Nick would not have been either at 189cm. It is about technique which he needs to develop and a spring which his injury has stuffed (temporarily hopefully).

Tell him he is no. 1 ruckman and develop him as such. It is a specialist position. With his individual attributes the rest will follow. Why? Because he has this great intent and desire to play footy. You can see it in his play. It just has to be channelled in the right way.

Edit: With the expected improvement in Kruezer I would trade one of Hampson or Warnock. With a greater upside in Hampson, Warnock would be the one to go hopefully for a good young midfielder. Get Caddy!

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

we would never trade all our rucks

..so, let me understand this.. ..your list out starts with Krooz.. ..Krooz in your opinion is not even close to A-grade, but you think a trade of him for Caddy and Toy..?.. ..me no capiche..

..i'd keep Hampson, there's very very few rucks of his kind of natural athleticism, he's the closest to NicNat in regards to pure athleticism.. ..i think he compliments a ruck like Krooz, and of our 3 rucks has been both afforded, and injury setbacks curtailing, the least amount of consecutive games.. ..barely over half a season and then only over the past couple of years.. ..in those two longest run of games he's shown marked improvement.. ..question would be how are those knees?, 2 PCL's in roughly a season of footy, was it the same knee twice or one each now..??.. ..he needs to be instilled with the confidence to back his athleticism, i think he could really grow..

..i believe Knockers should go since he's such a specialist 1 position player; i also think you might snare a late 1st rounder for him.. [e.g pies got wood for pick 14 WTF??!!] ..alternatively try and use him with GC for say Caddy, or some other talent we could shake loose and retain Krooz..

..Rusty we know is gone, seems the same for Thornton and Bower.. ..these two i think one ought to be retained [at least].. ..Thornton i think is a better player than say Maxwell, and fit with consistent games i reckon Bower would be better than HarryO.. ..thinking of Malty's ability to extract the very best out of his players, i think there's a lot of experience departing the list's defenders, and moving on Thornton and Bower in the same year is a little excessive for me, in regards to depth..

..Curnow is needed for midfield depth, and still has room for improvement, in my opinion he stays.. ..he's only still a rookie, it's not gonna take much to keep him..

..Joseph and others, others a few we know have been cut loose.. ..don't care too much, tend to agree here if anything..

..in regards to incoming talent, i'd stick with our picks and back the recruiters, with new development of recent past and incoming picks.. ..and moving on Knockers could free up some cap space if you wanted to try for a free agent [not an exorbitant one].. ..as well as either gaining a good pick or going for identified need/talent e.g Caddy..

..and possibly go sound out Tuck as a cheapy..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

I like what you're doing psych

Trading all 3 rucks may be crazy/inspired, or crazy/stupid but it gets us thinking.

If you had a magic wand, you'd wish for one quality DURABLE ruckman, a backup ruck who is probably more of a KPP but handy as a ruck at stoppages, and some cheap rookie/mature rucks.

We have 3 guys who are all best suited to rucking and maybe not a lot else. And it worries me that the only argument for retaining all three seems to be that all three seem to always get injured, so we need all three just to ensure we have a single fit ruck at all times.

It'd be great to think that the ruckman we spent No.1 pick on could be relied on for 20+ games a year in the ruck. But can he? I doesn't look like it. Pity, because he's got the ethos of a workhorse, but possibly not the body to suit.

I don't think Jacobs is all that great (IMO) but what he is, is honest dependable. Meat and potatoes, but good quality meat and potatoes. So the crows can plan around him being a constant presence, which must be a great thing for the match committee to be able to do. I wish we had a ruck like that.

I don't envy any match committee that has 3 rucks, none of whom seem capable of keeping their body together for a full season. It must limit their ability to keep a balanced list together.

You may be right or you may be wrong, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with proposing what many may think of as radical ideas.

Warnock's just signed a 3 year deal indicating he's going no-where. On his salary we'd be paying part of it at another club. If we wanted to trade him we'd give him less years and less money.

I'd prefer Warnock easily. Easily our best actual ruckman and his types are alot better in the 2nd half of their careers. 206cm rucks that can play are like gold. Ignore this year with his injury., it was this game 12 months ago where he successfully took on Cox and Nic Nat virtually on his own.

Casboult is similar to Hampson except he more a forward than ruckman. Certainly will be better than Hammer as a forward and does ok rucking when relieving. Kreuzer is also similar. We may have to "lose" a ruckman at some stage as MM like to play one ruck and a pinch-hitter (Casboult). Means we have one too many and a good bargaining chip. Warnock gives us something different and we'd regret giving him away as time goes as we did Jacobs he's the one out of the two I'd keep. I don't think "now" like many but think ahead hence I certainly believe Warnock will be the better of the over time. Hampson would be cheaper for us to give away too.

Of course it's up to the player if he wants to go. We just can't force them.

I agree. It's rates the silliest I've heard in ages.

Do like how Psych thinks outside the but this is not his best one.

Why stop at Kreuzer, Warnock and Hampson for draft picks?
Let's trade Judd, Murph, Simmo, Gibbs, Waite, Hendo, Yaz, Jamo, Robbo, Brock, Eddie, Jeff, Laidler.

We could get heaps of 1st round draft picks

..i'm not adverse to trading out a ruck.. ..i've said before that i think the only surplus on our list that could be exploited is our rucks.. ..i think Krooz is our best overall package, he's got the right attitude, skillset and i think is the most durable, and dependable.. ..will give his all game in game out, and even though he struggled this year with his fitness he proved the most durable of the 3.. ..and this is on the back of still recovering post ACL.. ..and i think there's still a heap of improvement in him.. ..get him right over the off-season.. ..and that isn't a slight on him, since all our rucks [and depth pinch-hitters for that matter] are in need of repairs or are recovering from recent ops.. ..and sort out the overall midfield.. ..then you'll see how good Krooz can be.. ..also note that the ol' Malty rates him, so i think him being thought of as an option is highly unlikely.. ..unless some club offers you a ridiculous amount, and if they did it would be because they rate him so highly.. ..which they should, rate him highly that is; keep in mind they already have.. ..GWS offered him a scully type offer even before he had played his return from the ACL; offer was there during his recovery..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Cox and Naitanui have kicked 50 goals between them this season. Both outstanding as first rucks, and outstanding as forward options. Unique situation.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

i dont care if this kid can play or not but we must pick him on name alone

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*(grow - fun - gah)

Yeah but whatabout your whataboutism.

There's another issue regarding trading players out, and that's around loyalty and Club culture. We've seen in the past that trading players in the wrong circumstances can seriously affect morale and culture (Essendon* mid-late80s). While I am sure over time clubs will become more and more ruthless in their trading, we're not at that point yet, and players need to feel that they belong at a club. Imagine if Carlton traded Kreuzer - number 1pick, talented but unfulfilled, possibly due to injury - while he was still contracted, every play at the Club would be wondering, "am I next?". Not good for morale or culture.

The same could be said of Warnock after he's just signed for 3 years, although this at least would be more understandable given he is not necessarily seen to be in our best 22.

The discussion is valuable, but it will never happen, Kreuzer will not be traded, unless he asks.

Warnock on the other hand could be, I think. And while he was reported to be on $400k in his first contract with us, his latest contract you would imagine would be significantly less.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

..agreed, definitely capable of working as a genuine ruck combo.. ..although they haven't always been as effective, smart coaching and a better understanding have seen them dominate.. ..for what it's worth the Krooz/Hammer combo combined for almost half of that; counting up their goals until Hammer's PCL which happened a bit after mid-season.. ..so, potentially i think they could net a similar result if we got a fit year out of them both with better overall coaching and structures from a team point of view, remember eagles 5th going into a semi they are a good chance of winning.. ..we are not..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

True, both Kreuzer and Hampson have some ability forward. Kreuzer with the right coaching I think could be very dangerous as a forward, needs to be taught where to run, and played more at CHF rather than out of the goal square. Also needs to learn to take marks over his head with his arms forward, not directly above his head. Looks to my very untrained eye that it's a remnant of junior footy, where he was tall enough to just stick his hands straight up and mark it overhead. Can't do that in the AFL, too easy to get a punch in from behind.

The issue with Warnock is that he's shown no signs of being able to be dangerous forward, or even around the ground for that matter.

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Mens sana in corpore sano.

Bring back the laurel wreath logo!!!

I think if you look at Kreuzer impartially, rather than letting a #1 pick draft tag influence perspective, he'd be a better candidate for "the Leigh Brown role" (tm) than Casboult, who I think could offer more as a stay at home forward.

Reckon Krezuer has upside in what he can gain from working to a Malthouse team ethos that suits his style of play, but very little trade value currently. Would definitely hang on to him. That he rejected GWS and GC with so little fanfare is the icing on the cake.

Ideally, would wait till Hampson or Warnock have some trade value, but may be waiting a while...think Warnock should go, but think it'll be Hampson as he'd be easier to offload.

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?

..agreed, once the tap is done Knockers offers the least, by a fair bit too.. ..and if Hampson can be fully developed there's very few rucks that can potentially do what he can.. ..i think Krooz has a hunter of the ball mentality and instinct, with a great footy brain from that playing point of view.. ..while he could be a good fwd, i think he's best is more as a ruck, that is expotentially more dangerous as a fwd when he floats/drifts or charges fwd to be an option; when he's up against a ruck in the fwd 50 vs a KPD..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..