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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 12:40 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Kouta wrote:
Synbad wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Great analysis Doc.

Refreshing to see people trying to explain where things are going wrong rather than going off half mad searching for coaching candidates :roll:



where things went wrong??????

we got smashed!!!!!

Thats where things went wrong....


anyway.... glad to see you enjoyed the analysis and you got happy about something and all positive and tingly.

We can fix it .... its just been 5 games straight. :roll:

Is that all you've got?

If criticism is constructive, then it appears you're out of your league.

Kouta.. you said we needed an army of half back athletic freak running jumping footy machines or something.. and you were happy with our list... and theyre gunna be midfielders.. cos we gunna turn them into mids.

we cant even turn midfielders into midfirelders ... see Gibbs number 1 pick....

i said.. we dont have enough ball winners.

anyway... we getting smashed.. and i think we had 1 guy with more than 20 touches on the weekend.. same the week before.

so no matter how shit what i have is.. its not nearly as delusional as you.... especially when you think marc murphy is a bird and bell is a borito

ok???

his analysis is not an analysis cos we have so far played 2 phases of footy
prior to Essendon* and Essendon* and post Essendon*

i would think his carrazzo numbers cant be counted n any serious way.. cos all of our players got big numbers prior to Essendon*.

and their numbers were down after Essendon*

so its a pretty big bow to draw when he talks about numbers that are poles apart in real terms.

Thats not analysis.

Its lala land stuff....

Just like your army of athletic freaks who can run jump and not get a touch

And your interpertation of footballers being other footballers... but not themselves.

You should interpret dreams or something and not worry about football...

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 5:29 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Synbad wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Great analysis Doc.

Refreshing to see people trying to explain where things are going wrong rather than going off half mad searching for coaching candidates :roll:



where things went wrong??????

we got smashed!!!!!

Thats where things went wrong....


anyway.... glad to see you enjoyed the analysis and you got happy about something and all positive and tingly.

We can fix it .... its just been 5 games straight. :roll:


Well, in your own little repetitive way you analyse stuff all the time, our list is out if whack because we have too many HBF's...unlike most of the warriors going off at the moment I at least give you some credit for that.

Its one thing to get angry and yell and type nasty things about Ratts and Gibbs and delve into the past to re-write history and turn McVeigh's behinds into goals, but at the end if the day what do you think a new coach is going to do? Sit down and say well no point analysing whats happened over the last month, we got smashed, thats all we can say about that.

Our coaching staff, and that means Ratts, Richardson, Roos if we get our way here and can drag him off the couch, need to understand we've moved away from contested footy, are being smashed at the stoppages and the rest of our structure has fallen away because of it. Fix that and our forward and defensive structures get the support they need.

Or we can just get angry :mad: :mad: :mad:

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 6:52 am 
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Craig Bradley

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TruBlueBrad wrote:
Great analysis Doc.

Refreshing to see people trying to explain where things are going wrong rather than going off half mad searching for coaching candidates :roll:



Here is the answer.
Stats only give a small proportion of the answer
The problems this club has are deeper and arnt explained by stats


Stats and nothing else are for shallow narrow
minded thinkers

Dont get the wrong idea
I dont go on this site to win arguments
I go on this site because I dont want the club I support going down the toilet
And IMO it is
Clubs like Adelaide and Essendon* have addressed the issue of contested ball
Rattten and co havent
that's called being innovative

When in his 5 years as coach has Ratten done something that the other coaches havent
Thats your question Brad. My answer to that is nought

Dont look at correct English and deflect the argument

Ratten isnt coaching in the eastern suburbs
This is the AFL


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:01 am 
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Stephen Silvagni
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See, thats better. Rather than correcting me on stuff I haven't said you're actually asking good questions.

There are people here who understand the way the game is played much better than me and are able to identify trends. Thats why it amazes me people are prepared to go off when they really don't know what they're talking about.

To answer your question as best as I can, Ratten has taken trends in the game and developed and adopted those rather than being completely innovative. The small forwards, our tight press which opens scoring opportunities, our midfield has been effective with a good mix, Scotland and Simpson compliment each other well as wingers and at times we've backed in an undersized defence to provide run and carry.

We've come from a long way back in 07, improved each year since, not as quickly as some would like, but improved nonetheless. Its fallen apart in the last month, not because Ratts cant coach, but because we've moved away from the contested style thats served us so well. Dont forget teams have studied us all summer. We've become the hunted and someone identified a way to beat us.

The challenge now is for this coaching group to counter that and get us back on track. Replacing Ratts with Richardson or Riley isn't going to help...they're contributing to the game plan you think is not good and others think has no 'B' side.

We've waited a long time, being impatient now, cracking and starting again isn't going to get us there any quicker.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:10 am 
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Bruce Doull
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TruBlueBrad wrote:
Synbad wrote:
TruBlueBrad wrote:
Great analysis Doc.

Refreshing to see people trying to explain where things are going wrong rather than going off half mad searching for coaching candidates :roll:



where things went wrong??????

we got smashed!!!!!

Thats where things went wrong....


anyway.... glad to see you enjoyed the analysis and you got happy about something and all positive and tingly.

We can fix it .... its just been 5 games straight. :roll:


Well, in your own little repetitive way you analyse stuff all the time, our list is out if whack because we have too many HBF's...unlike most of the warriors going off at the moment I at least give you some credit for that.

Its one thing to get angry and yell and type nasty things about Ratts and Gibbs and delve into the past to re-write history and turn McVeigh's behinds into goals, but at the end if the day what do you think a new coach is going to do? Sit down and say well no point analysing whats happened over the last month, we got smashed, thats all we can say about that.

Our coaching staff, and that means Ratts, Richardson, Roos if we get our way here and can drag him off the couch, need to understand we've moved away from contested footy, are being smashed at the stoppages and the rest of our structure has fallen away because of it. Fix that and our forward and defensive structures get the support they need.

Or we can just get angry :mad: :mad: :mad:



Brad, but mine is true and accurate.
We play uncontested footy squeezing the ball out of the bubble into open space and turn it into a foot race.
The opposition wont let us do that anymore and theyre turning it into a contested football game which we dont have the players(too many non midfelder types) or the training to combat.
We also use too many taggers... meaning those guys dont have the mindset to get their hands on the ball first.
We continue to play the same way each week.. not changing basic structures but maybe tinkering here or there... and getting mauled.
\Tere is no silver bullet we have not drafted what we need and the reserves proves that.
We can try to address it firstly by putting in our biggest bodied midfielders including McLean in the guts and work backwards from there to find a balance.

I think this is pretty accurate and tells the story much better than some meaningless stats.

Yes i know i repeat it... but then again we repeat the gameplan over and over and the result is the same.

Oh and as for fixing it .. sack Ratten.!!!

Also Sticks
N/o offence but are we going to have to sugar coat whats going on and the result in a quest to make it all look like what its not???

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:22 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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keogh wrote:
Stats only give a small proportion of the answer
The problems this club has are deeper and arnt explained by stats


Not disagreeing with you there. But to address the midfield problem, they're the best solution and certainly one of the best coaching tools to use to demonstrate to Gen Y footballers that they are not doing the right thing. That's what this thread is about. Addressing the midfield issue which is the core of our on-field debacle.

So it's not about Sticks...not about Ratts...not about whether stats are right or wrong...just about how these stats can illustrate what is and isn't going on at the stoppages.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:39 am 
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Bruce Doull
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doc?

what we need to do is to put the bigger bodies in the midfield and play more man on man footy.

different to a bunch of taggers who play k reactive game of footy chasing arses.

Milne didn't do much on the weekend!

he did against us!

Joseph got no touches.

he was tagging!

way too many taggers to find the ball as a collective unit!

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:48 am 
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formerly Virgin Blue

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Sanderson says he only ever has one tag. Ratten has multiple, and these players become spectators not getting the ball. No wonder leaving too much to too few.

I'm really not sold on Ratten.

Too defensive.
Doesn't innovate, just copies trends. The day of multiple tags ended years ago.
Overt focus on run instead of getting the pill in the first place. Ess n Adel players are physical monsters whereas our boys seemed to have slimmed down if anything.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 10:59 am 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
doc?

what we need to do is to put the bigger bodies in the midfield and play more man on man footy.

different to a bunch of taggers who play k reactive game of footy chasing arses.

Milne didn't do much on the weekend!

he did against us!

Joseph got no touches.

he was tagging!

way too many taggers to find the ball as a collective unit!


Again...my post was merely illustrating the midfield conundrum from a statistical standpoint. It's the easiest way to understand what's happening. I'm not disagreeing with you about bigger bodies, less tagging and man-on-man footy (in patches)...those solutions might fix the problem....they might not...up to the coaches and playing group to improve work ethic...as you say - footy isn't hard.


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:05 am 
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Bruce Doull
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Sugarcane wrote:
Sanderson says he only ever has one tag. Ratten has multiple, and these players become spectators not getting the ball. No wonder leaving too much to too few.

I'm really not sold on Ratten.

Too defensive.
Doesn't innovate, just copies trends. The day of multiple tags ended years ago.
Overt focus on run instead of getting the pill in the first place. Ess n Adel players are physical monsters whereas our boys seemed to have slimmed down if anything.


so you want ratten to be reactive and copy Essendon* and adelaide?

or do you want him to be innovative and re-invent multiple taggers and runners?

lots of having cake and eating it too around

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 11:39 am 
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Rod Ashman

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DocSherrin wrote:
Analyse the numbers game and you can start to piece together the puzzle that is our midfield conundrum at the moment. The key stats for mine - and I dare say the coaches - are Contested Possession (CP), Disposal Efficiency (DE), Hitouts (HO), Hitouts to Advantage (H2A) and the all-important Clearances.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 151 73% 26 5.2% 39
Richmond 136 72% 38 4.75% 32

*Andrew Carrazzo with 17 contested possessions and 7 clearances.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 165 73 51 31.37% 47
Brisbane 137 69 35 25.71% 37

*Marc Murphy with 20 contested touches and 10 clearances. Andrew Carazzo with 16 contested possessions and 7 clearances.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 151 76% 56 26.78% 50
Collingwood 123 71% 44 9.09% 32

*Andrew Carazzo with 17 contested possessions and 11 clearances.
*At this point of the season, Andrew Carrazzo was responsible for 18.38% of Carlton’s overall clearances and 10.98% of their total contested possessions.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 140 71% 36 44.44% 35
Essendon* 142 72% 48 37.5% 38

*You know the story. Carrazzo injured early - no one picks up the slack and Jobe Watson finishes with 20 contested possessions and 13 clearances, whilst Brent Stanton was allowed to do as he pleased with 28 uncontested possessions.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 126 77% 54 9.25% 30
Fremantle 125 75% 32 18.75% 40

*Won 63% of the available hitouts against a team minus Sandilands, yet only 9.25% of those would be to advantage.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 144 69% 47 31.91% 28
GWS 131 71% 24 33.33% 41

*Won 66% of the available hitouts - yet smashed in the clearances.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 141 68% 60 18.33% 37
St. Kilda 136 74% 25 32% 42

*Won 70% of the hitouts for virtually zero advantage. Saints minus McEvoy.

Team CP DE HO H2A Clearances

Carlton 123 75% 53 24% 42
Adelaide 151 71% 57 36% 48

*69 point loss
*Carlton clearance total Rounds 1-3: +35, Rounds 4-8: -38.
*No Murphy and No Carrazzo? They produce 36.53% of Carlton's clearances and 20.7% of Carlton's contested possessions.

So the midfield set-up needs a shake up. What might have been working against teams in Rounds 1-3 has seemingly gone out the window in Rounds 4-8. The Match committee has no choice but to select Brock McLean. We need to win more clearances. That's why he's at the club. While the coaching staff can analyse these numbers and do all the video review in the world - what can you do about lazy footballers who a) ignore their role and b) have an inflated opinion of their footballing ability??

The turnaround must be player driven. Laziness is unacceptable at this level. The players must adhere to the coaches instruction. Captain included. They'll be measured this week. Doesn't matter about the margin - there will be strict KPI's this team will have to adhere to and if they're not met...expect regular 6am sessions at South Melbourne beach until the message sinks in.


Great post, Doc. Carrazzo loss has been so crucial, time for others to stand up in the guts, including B Gibbs!


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 12:00 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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let's bamboozle the players with reactive football and statistics! not!

football is basic!
hunt the ball
contest!
win!
execute to advantage!

not reactionary mixed with a heavy dose of statistical jargon!

load up in the midfield and play contested football.

the fact that we don't concentrate on contested means the coaches are hopeless!

strip it all bare and get back to the basics. off the one trick pony we have become accustomed to!

no tinkering till we get our hands on the pill!

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:15 pm 
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Alex Jesaulenko

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From behind the pay wall

http://www.perthnow.com.au/adev/old-afl ... 6362864928

Quote:
HOW does Carlton fix its slump? After wiping out their opponents in the first three rounds, the Blues have struggled in recent weeks.

The midfield

FOOTBALL is won in the midfield and the money stat is clearances.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Above article describing the way we are conceeding goals gives me flashbacks to the pre season game against North Melbourne - if they won a clean clearance they'd goal with ease, we didn't look like winning the ball back and the same has happened against St Kilda, Adelaide and Essendon*. Adelaide 9 goals from stoppages on the weekend.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 2:42 pm 
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Ken Hunter
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Effes wrote:
Above article describing the way we are conceeding goals gives me flashbacks to the pre season game against North Melbourne - if they won a clean clearance they'd goal with ease, we didn't look like winning the ball back and the same has happened against St Kilda, Adelaide and Essendon*. Adelaide 9 goals from stoppages on the weekend.


That is the one thing I took out of the preseason games. It also happened against Richmond and Brisbane to a lesser extent. I remember saying I was concerned as it was going to cut us up against the better teams who we weren't flogging in clearances...


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:15 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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the bench marks I'm interested in are made up from independent assessing of this football club and how it goes about its business from top to bottom!

not what Ed curnow rookie draft pick journeyman does!

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:19 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Synbad wrote:
the bench marks I'm interested in are made up from independent assessing of this football club and how it goes about its business from top to bottom!


Ken Sheldon does that independent assessment stuff for a living. Is it ok by you if Wallsy comes in and gives him a hand? :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:21 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Hope there's no statistics in those benchmarks, they mean nothing you know :grin:

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:22 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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but you see my point about the numbers!?

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 3:24 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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I agree that stats aren't the be all and end all but they do have their place in quantifying performance which is difficult to do when it comes to sport.

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