You can thank Denis Pagan for having a crack at us in the paper.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

No, I know chubby, so he'll do.

And yet you can just as easily point to the flawed development of Andrew Walker (and to a lesser extent, Josh Kennedy) over that time, that those leftover from that period of time remain those the most notorious for being downhill skiiers, that convey a "near enough is good enough" attitude, and seemingly aren't anywhere near as professional as their newer counterparts or players we've recruited from other clubs since then.

2004 draft....imagine if we'd played that one smart...

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BLUES 2010: PAV AND JUDD = FLAGS. DOING IT FOR THE LOVE OF DICK PRATT.

HAVE YOU SIGNED UP FOR TALKINGCARLTON SUPERCOACH 2009 YET?

Pagan coached us to 2 premierships; he can hold his head high.

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#DonTheStash

So true.....

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Debt wise we still are

I remember attending an AGM in the dark old days and walking away convinced we were screwed.

Shortly thereafter, I had one of those "remember where you were when you heard" moments, when I heard that Pratt had taken over the Presidency.

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"I had to eat"

Cooney was taken in the 2003 draft, we were penalised our first round pick NOT our priority pick.
The Bulldogs finished bottom and Cooney was taken as a priority followed by Walker who was also a priority pick. We missed out on pick 5 that year who turned out to be Brock McLean.

I dont write much (as you can see) but I CANNOT sit hear and see the history of the Pagan disaster being re-written.

Sure we were in bad way, but that "genuis" ripped the guts out of our culture. Glen Manton was Carlton thru and thru but left by Pagan to languish in the 2's while that moron Martin received his superannuation embarrasing us in the 1st's. And surprise surprise, he got injured immediately after playing his 200th and last game - spare me!

As for old players 'retiring' -they were either voting with their feet or being forced out. (Think Hickmont, Manton, Ratten, Bradley and others). Even our captain who got injured with ,I think 10 games to go in the season opted for retirement rather than get over the injury and maybe play the last couple of games. (Pagan really had em playing for the jumper!) They were a team that had their hearts ripped out by the angry little man sitting alone in his isolated office counting his money.

I think that the impact of this is still being felt, as after Pagan's not so subtle cull, we had no true Carlton players left to pass the Carlton mantle to the new guys coming through. (hence we then had to artifically create the 'spirit of Carton'). Melbourne hit the bottom too but at least their draft picks have some seasoned, true "melbourne" players to play alongside. Our old players were actually made to feel unwelcome at their club - thanks Dennis.
The fact that Pagan cut such a swathe through our team has made our mountain that much harder to climb. I think people forget how deep our hole was (and how Dennis, through his actions made it that much deeper)

Players were repeatedly asked to take pay cuts and did so for the good of the club, but not our coach, nope he actually made more money by (1) getting his contract extended and (2) being paid out of his final year (but then again, the 2nd one was probably one of Dick Pratt's best investments!)

As for game plan, It was all about minimising the damage and any young player that showed a bit of initiatlve or flair to take on the opposition was dragged/dropped/or humiliated (fev at FB on Gehrig) - really good for their confidence.

For me Wayne Brittain got twice as much out of the players he had at his disposal (and saw the fevola train wreck for what it was). Brittain with a team absolutley decimated by injury, had the players playing for him, the club and each other. Pagan never achieved that.

He had a reputation for being good at developing kids, and men that he had had since being kids, (and maybe that was true)but he was absolutely out of his depth managing men that he couldnt intimidate.

Yep for me, the only thing we should remember Pagan for his reults - and they show him to be the worst ever coach in our otherwise proud history. Beyond that he should be wiped from the annals of our history and never EVER be allowed to comment upon us as though he was at any time one of us.

No one should ever forget how bad he was.

Good bye and good riddance dennis, enjoy spending our money on your horsies.

(In case it isnt clear, I really really dislike what this man did to our club)

I can assure that there was nothing 'artificial' about the creation of the spirit of carlton. Maybe you chose the wrong wording.

It was independantly formed spontaneously by former players and officials who truly love the club.

These blokes on the executive give their time to benefit the club. Attending monthly meetings, taking meeting notes, attending functions, promoting the club all around the country, corporate compliance issues you know the drill. Running a not for profit is hard yards and those that support it deserve some plaudits.

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The Spirit of Carlton compels you!

The near fatal damage to the club was done long before Pagan arrived at the club.

The blame for the position we found ourselves in belongs to John Elliot and those who allowed him to use the club as his personal fiefdom long after it was clear that the club was being run into the ground in the same way he did his variuos business's.

How John Elliot didn't face legal sanction for what he did is one of the unanswered questions of that time.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

My Apologies Spirit,

Definitley no insult intended, & if it was taken that way, then I definitley chose the wrong wording.
I think that the creation of Spirit of Carton was one of the big turning points in us starting to turn the ship around. I was over the moon when I heard of your initiative.

My point was more that in the past there was not need for a "spirit of Carlton" it was jsut there and handed down from one generation of players to the next.

The reason that we needed to create such a thing was that the spirit has been roipped out of us, and from this supporter's (and outsider's) point of viewone D.Pagan had big part to play in that happening.

I hope you all can keep up the good work, because it seems to be helping.

Bluemark, I have to agree - the poison was definitely in the system.

Elliott really stuffed us up, and should not be allowed anywhere near our club ever again. BUT from a culture point point of view Pagan really made sure we weren't going to be coming back anytime soon.
There were some great servants of our club who we allowed to be treated really poorly.
Through that we lost something that even Elliott hadnt been able to touch.

How about Elloitt #1 and Pagan a close 2nd?

No worries blue thru'n'thru, sort of figured that but just wanted to put forward our side just in case.

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The Spirit of Carlton compels you!

We were nearly stuffed and that is why Ian Collins as much as Dick Pratt is a real Carlton hero/saviour -WITHOUT his determination hard nosed approach we were gone -

remember a meeting with Collo and Smorgon were it was obvious club completely r---- financially but they refused to let it die collo refused to hand in the keys -Collo and spirit of carlton board started the resurrection
As for the docklands deal -did it so the club to survive and remember the AFL forced us to etihad as a tenant - similarly salary cap penalty -collo would have challenged it but club would have gone to the wall

Bluemark is right Elliott ran the club into the ground and Should never be allowed near it again

no revisionist history Collo is a true carlton champion -without him we would be barracking for someone else

Dark days indeed. My football world truly sucked.

From 1995 (my joy at Carlton winning the flag), Glenelg finished 7th, 7th, 8th, bottom, 4th, bottom, bottom

then;

2002 Carlton 3 wins, finished bottom. Glenelg 3 wins, finished bottom
2003 Carlton 4 wins, second last. Glenelg 5 wins, second bottom
2004 Carlton 10 wins, finished 11th, Glenelg 7 wins, finished 7th
2005 Carlton 4 wins, finished bottom, Glenelg 6 wins, finished second bottom
2006 Carlton 3 wins, finished bottom, Glenelg 10 wins, finished 6th
2007 Carlton 4 wins, finished second bottom, Glenelg 10 wins, finished 4th.

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Go to http://www.snoutslouts.org/ for a look at the mighty GFC...

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THEY LIKE TO SEND UP!!!!!!!!

Until each team plays each other the same number of times, the AFL, as a fair dinkum competition, cannot be taken seriously.

He (Mr Swann) said the honour and pride associated with the club's traditional navy blue jumper was priceless.

Attended all of them in the period 2002 to 2007. It was awful at times. Some of he people in charge and on the Board were just so incompetent..... it was like watching an old English sitcom.....


Yes, who reminded me of this period? Who started the thread? Ban him......

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TC suffers from the social media illness - the death of respect and constructive discourse by keyboard.

No he's not.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

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Cheats never prosper (except in the AFL)