at the start of the season, many TCer's were of the opinion that if Setanta Kicked 30+ goals for the year, then he would have done a fantastic job. some even thought that was beyond him. Given that its round 12 and he's kicked 25 goals, i'd say that that he's been one of the real positives of our season so far.
having said that, his recent form is poor, and his spot in the starting 22 should be under review.

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i don't wanna spend my life explaining myself. Either you get it, or you don't- Frank Zappa

Once you get over the notion that we must structure up and have a designated FF you will see that Ohalpin is not in the best 22 - pick the best 22 if that means 3 ruckmen then do it


go back at look at the stats for friday night and see he kicked the most goals neither is what you would call a full forward

whats wrong with player maclean and shifting judd forward or even gibbs
what wrong with player kruez jacobs warnock and rotating all three forward
in a desperate move to create on friday ratts had both ruckmen on the ground at the same time

sorry the fairy tale is over we have tried and failed no great loss move on before we waste more valuable game that could be used on Hendo - make him the focal point not the decoy like he has been

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Three ordinary games in 5 weeks for Ohalipin..... Needs to be more consistent or he should not be in the side.

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You heard it here first!

so we waste time by playing Setanta but not Wiggins, not Fish

yes we had both on the ground and it showed we were struggling and we lost!

I hope Hendo is picked and Yazz and neither being selected is anything to do with Setanta but their own form/development or injuries.

I don;lt think anyone at the club thinks he is the long term solution but he is playing a part at the moment while we continue to develop.

In fact I hope they try Hammer at FF but I would worry with him Kruise and Jacobs in the side. This game is all about speed (in all its aspects) and we have looked at our best this year when we have used our speed. The blokes you want to pick will throw that balance off and @#$%&! up the speed.

I think Setanta will gradually be phased out (quick if someone jumps up now and grabs a chance) as kids come through but that's neither here nor there. What is here are your continual snide remarks as if its somehow Setanta's fault. It isn't and I for one have enjoyed the journey he has given us and we should never lose sight of those journeys.. Just like Hulmes or Livos or any player's - its stupid to get obsessed with only the Judds. They take our breath away but the Setanta's of this world bring just as much joy because their stories are more like our own, ups and downs and obstacles and, well, we are not Judds are we.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Sydney I respect the fact that your clearly hate Setanta,,.......... but your yet to give me any kind of valid argument as to who else would be a better target up forward.
Right now, it seems as if you just want him out because quite simply, you hate him.

Move Judd up forward you say? Judd is not a forward and he is without-a-doubt the most important part of our midfield............

Move Gibbs up forward? Really? After he's form this year being put accross half-back? I reckon he's set just where he is.

Move Kreuzer up forward???? He's kicked 4 goals this year - hardly worth moving up forward with that outcome.

Play 3 ruckman and rotate Warnock up forward you reckon? Warnock has hardly set the world on fire in the AFL and is just-getting-by in the VFL. How is he going to be amy better than Setanta as an option up forward?

I do aggre with you that we are in desperate need of some forward structure but i dissagree that Setanta is, as you say, not in our best 22. He's our leading goal kicker..........


If there is a better option than Setanta......... they are yet to present himself.



Continue with your hatred, your more than entitled to that, but your yet to give a valid reason as to why he's not deserving of his spot in this side.

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"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Just think Ryan we could have delisted him last year and drafted Jpod or even kept Cam cloke or Hartlett and given either of them 12 games at FF with no one allowed to criticise their performance because we had no one else . They could have had 2 kicks in a game and we all could come on here and say who else is there we have no other FF . Just think instead of Santy and his helpers it could have been Cam and his drinking buddies or Jpods pod or Hartletss Harem
We could have played Jacobs and Warnock in the ruck and had Kruez and the Kids
we might even finish the year with hammer and his Hampsters or Wiggo and the wiggles


8 forward 50 entries in the first quarter and 6 directed at this bloke for zero return

look at about te 2 or 3 minute mark when Murph popped it up to the top of the Square , setanta had the perfect sit and any player with half and ounce of ability would have taken it - he didn't get near it - and there are moments at the begining of games that set the tone for the rest of the night and there it was right there and then - by the end of the first they were looking for Eddie

dumb arguement there are 44 players on the list and 43 of them are better than this bloke

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I agree that Carlos has done a reasonable job up until a few weeks ago...with Fish back in touch he is the obvious replacement for Carlos to play the role from the square...Fish can mark which Carlos cannot and whilst his kicking isnt the best its still better than Carlos but the most important diffefrence is that Fish has a footy brain and that is what we need more of up forward and without Fev to worry about I reckon he may deliver...Carlos I love...his passion is amazing but he will always be a fill in type player and he has filled in well...but now its time for those he has filled in for to take over...

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"Truth, for the tyrants, is the most terrible and cruel of all bindings; it is like an incandescent iron falling across their chests. And it is even more agonizing than hot iron, for that only burns the flesh, while truth burns its way into the soul"     — Lauro Aguirre

Sydney,.......

Cam cloke in his three years at Carlton kicked just 25 goals................. The very same amount of goals that Setanta has kicked this year alone - In just 11 games!

Are you seriously suggesting he would have been a better option up forward?


Hartlett, whilst being starved of opportunities through injury, never really showed anything at all when finally given opportunity.


JPOD>? What makes you think that we even gave him a thought at draft time. Just cause he's been a good pick up by the Cats doesn't mean he was ever under our draft radar. In fact, 15 other clubs bypassed him for the last 10 years. Are you suggesting that if we dropped Setanta from our list than we would have picked up James Podsiadly???

OR if not J-Pod,.......... who would you have drafted?




Again........... your entitled not to like a player (as I have disliked Jordan Russell in the past) but you can't be clouded by your hatred. Setanta is our best option up forward at the moment (and is 100 x better than Cloke & Hartlett put together!)

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

Hartlett and Cloke?

You're biased, so just leave it alone and find another whipping boy.

Even Fevola struggled to make an impact in the finals last year, yet you expect Setanta to have smashed a game where we kicked "dirty bombs" inside fifty.

Our disposal and spread to create space and forward movement to produce one on one contests was abysmal.

I can only recall one big mark after Scotland's kick at goal fell short and Waite marked it on the line.

Very stagnant ball movement all night, yet you're singling out Setanta who was on the end of that.

Fisher can't apply defensive pressure like Setanta.

It is not hatred he is just a bad footballer and doesnt deserve to be on an AFL list if he was a good footballer i would like him but the club is wasting valuable development time that could have been used on anyone else . what i am saying if he is just temporary then Cam or Harlett would have been a better option because they think like footballers

Hendo should have been left in the side and became the main avenue for attack and they should keep kicking it to him the same way they have with Ohalpin 1 in every 4 entries into the forward 50 then his confidence would grow Watching hendo make lead after lead pushing up and working back harder than any forward has done in years to act as a decoy for this big clux makes me want to vomit

can you point me to the time that Cam or Harlett played 12 games in a row as the no1 target in the forward 50 because sorry I cant remember when that was

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Cloke and Hartlett each had a decade of junior development advantage over Carlos. The fact that Hartlett never got picked up, Cloke is a fringe player at his third club and that we are even comparing them to someone who started playing the game at 20 suggests to me.............................that the MC got it right. Setanta is out of form yes, and probably a mid term option at best, but FFS, can someone throw SB a rope to extricate himself from that crater he dug himself into when suggesting that Hartlett and Cloke deserve more develpment than Setanta

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

There is something credible in Sydney's argument about Setanta.

Setanta may or may not be the future.
He is at times clumsy and becomes a spectator.
He hasn't shown the kind of aggression he did when manning Lloydy a few years ago.
He has gone missing in the last couple of games.
He had made some 'dumb' decisions recently.

That's all fine and easy to see, despite the same can be said about many footballers who have grown with the game.

However, it is ignorant to undervalue the 25 odd goals he's kicked in 11 games.
He's kicked the goals. There's proof of that. He's assisted plenty of others.There's plenty of proof of that too.
And we're sitting in a better place in 2010 with Setanta in the goals square than we were in 2009 with Fev there.

He's gone missing when the rest of the team was really average with its intensity and its delivery forward.
I've looked at his game against The Demons and I thought his contribution was better than Sydney Blue suggested.
It was Spalding like in that he was a link man in nearly all our early goals and he attacked the ball and pressured the backmen.
I couldn't have wanted more than that...then down came the rain....and most of our players fell away, temporarily in the 3rd.

The problem with SB's argument is that the argument against Setanta is full of hatred, frustration, lacks reasoning and a cool head.
In fact some of the suggestions put forward in support of his argument have entered the territory of ridiculous and controversial for ....I don't know....perhaps attention? I don't think it's that, but whatever it is, it's indefensible.
Then when he's asked for alternatives he looks at discarded players or players on their way out.
The examples put forward by SB such us Cloke, Hartlett, Fisher, Wiggins....look Setanta may not have a great footy brain, but with the alternatives to Setanta presented by SB tells me that SB has lost his way and doesn't understand footy any more.
It seems he's talking more out of anger rather than logic.

Look, those players mentioned who are no longer on the list are no longer on the list for good reason. Stupid to bring them up.
Next, players on our list like Fisher and Wiggo, well, it was obvious after the round 22 2008 game against Hawks that they were a liability because of their lack of pace and problems with their diposal. Just because these guys have a footy brain SB suggests they should be selected ahead of Setanta. Talk about going backwards. SB, there's physical attributes the modern game needs which is beyond 'growing with the game' and 'knowing the game' better than Setanta. If they can't compete defensively or if they can't kick over a jam jar, what's the point in them taking a spot in the 22. What's your point? Anything is better than Setanta? Not good enough and irresponsible.

SB, quit whilst your ahead. Your agrgument is bordering on the ridiculous.
I am a believer that Hendo, Setanta, Waite and Hammer/ Kreuzer and maybe Austin are all in contention for a KPF role post Fevola, Cloke and Hartlett.
We don't need to look at the past for alternatives like Cloke, Hartlett, Fisher and Wiggins.
We need tall fast and competitive KPF's.
I believe that Casboult, White and Donaldson, all who have grown with the game need time to develop as forwards in the Ants.
We've got some real depth and options moving forward, so lets not freak out too much and learn from problems which are highlighted in our losses: and imo the current problem is mental, and that applies to most of the team.

If Ratts and the MC put pressure on the players like Hendo, Setanta, Waite and Hammer/ Kreuzer to perform, and that is by demoting and promoting them purely based on form displayed at the most recent game, we wouldn't be carrying players who are, or might be, out of form; if that's what Setanta is suffering from. Hendo looked like he needed a spell in the 2's after the Magpies game. It's done him a world of good. Same with Waite.

Dropping Hendo when we did was understandable at the time. His promotion to the seniors after his recent performances for Setanta would have been a good idea. That is not to say Setanta doesn't deserve to be considered as a KPF this year, because he's proven to be a good option, when in form, and when the team is playing well further up the ground. Remember that forwards are dependent on the performance of those further up the ground.

The argument that he wasn't born in the game or doesn't know how to play the game is baseless.
If anything, Ratts should drop him to ensure he focusses on areas needing attention like aggression on the man and ball, stop the spectating, increase the tackle count and work on his timing of his leads. Ratts should do that with all players who need to work on some of their deficiencies, whether they were born with the game or not; we've got depth, especially now that we have 6-7 players returning from injury.

We should not be dropping anybody because they were not born in the game. Form should determine their spot in the 22.
Setanta has shown form this year to warrant his selection, and SB has acknowledged that this year.

Lets move forward with those we have on our list and are part of the future, forget about the rear view mirror.

We will iron out deficiencies as the season progresses; watch this space. Some of the form our team and Setanta has been beyond our wildest expectations. The good should be ackowledged as much as the bad in well balanced argument.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Pretty much what he said above.

_________________
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit"
- Aristotle

This is just complete crap. Sure he got games well before he was ready under Pagan. Ratts however started him in the 2's and he was made to earn his place just like the rest of the guys.

OK we get it you don't like the guy but enough with the fairy tales.

Why is a stupid arguement to suggest that players that are younger and of the same ability should be given the same latitude as this bloke - there is not a player on the list who can under perform as bad for as long and as consistant without either being dropped or moved on

He failed as a ruckman
He failed as a backman
they have sent him forward and kicked the ball to him 10- 12 times a game for a return of 25 goals in 12 games most of which came in the first handful of games until oposition decided hey we better put someone on him

His last 4 have been terrible

and thats my arguement none of you can say that the other players I have mentioned have been given the same chances he has -they were brought in for 3 to 4 games and then moved back to the bullants for not performing - cloke Hartlett Fisher and wiggo had to spend years along side Fev demanding the ball - We dont know how good they would have been when they didn't have this dominant player around them - We all saw how bad Setanta was last year when asked to play along side of him he got to the point he was dropped in preference to Cloke for the final in Brissy

there was a point htere in the 3rd quarter where a free kick for out on the full was awared to north about 20 metres away from Ohalpin - Judd who should have been pushing back to defence had to run past Ohalpin to take the mark - Ohalpin was standing there like a stunned mullet with out a clue neither manning a bloke or manning the mark - It is the basics he just doesnt get it

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

ahh now I get the argument, it seems to be a common one.

When he does well its cos everyone lets him

when he does poorly its cos he is shite

great argument.

_________________
This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Sydney Blue quotes:


I'm not sure which young blokes you're referring to. Hendo?

Hendo was given opportunity to develop at CHF and showed plenty. He was dropped when it appeared he was tiring/ out of form after tha WCE game. At this same time Setanta was starring and for that reason he kept his spot.

I would have dropped Setanta last week and replaced him with Hendo who kicked 8 goals in the Ants, given the output of the two that weekend. I would not have stamped Setanta's papers as you would. I'd ask him to focus on certain things in the Ants, and he'd return to the seniors when he'd repeated the required efforts and an opportinity opened for him in the ones.

.

He did allright for a bloke who wasn't developed or prepared to ruck. He's certainly no ruckman.
I noticed that Silvia failed in the ruck a couple of weeks ago too. Heard of horses for courses?
The MC failed to find better alternative than Setanta at the time. Who would you have played in the ruck during our dark dark years? There was no one else.



I don't think he failed as a backman. I thought he played some very good games at FB after he put on all that muscle to play against gorillas. He freaked me out at the pointy end of the ground, like Bower does, but geez he did better against gorillas than anyone else we had.

Now, remember Livo who was around at the time, and drafted as the next SOS, born and bred Aussie and Aussie Rules upbringing was the one who was deemed to have failed...so Setanta took his spot. That's what I call a failure. I never saw Livo have a win at FB, wheras I did see Setanta have a few wins during our darkest period. Who else would you select to play on the gorillas at the time? Thornton?



That's your story. I don't agree. at all.

According to your numbers, Setanta would receice 220 passes for an output of 50 goals compared to Fev who had 353 passes directed to him for 89 goals in 2009. Now remember that you reckon he's a shit footballer. Based on those numbers I can't see the failure. How do you?

You're saying he didn't have an opponent when he kicked his 20 goals in 5 (handful) games. Bullshit! He ran hard, he presented, he marked and he earned the goals he kicked. What about mentioning his assists. What about the big goals from outside 50....there's a bit to work with, that's why he retained his spot.

Look SB, you are exaggerating and making up stories. Why? To prove your point. If you have to make up stories to prove your point, then what's the point in that? You're wasting everyone's time and only convincing yourself if you believe your premise.



I don't think that's right. Terrible is the word you would use. Your bias has been noted to plenty in this thread.

As I mentioned above, I thought Setanta's game was very good in the dry against Melbourne. I didn't see 10-12 passes directed to him against North. He kicked 3 against the WCE and 1 aagainst the Dawks. It was not Setantas fault the ball hardly crossed the 50m mark. Again, he did not have 10-12 passes to him in that game. Now I wouldn't blame Setanta for the loss against North and he wasn't the target of 10-12 passes from his team mates. There was a lot of lobby the ball in his vicinity in the hope something would happen. I agree that opportnity he fumbled in the goal square would have been cobbled up by Fev or Browny, but that was 1 genuine opportunity he failed with. I am happy to give him a break and give Hendo a go....but I wouldn't be putting a line against his name with half a season and finals ahead of us; that's a nonsense.

-

Yes I will say that Fisher, Cloke and Wiggins were exposed for a lack of pace a couple of years back. Hartlett was dropping marks, left right and centre. He loked ordinary. You tend to forget that. They were a liability, and were rarely considered last year when we had a huge injury list. The game had passed them by. Look forward, they're old news.



Who are you referring to as "we"? Not me.
Setanta played a role whilst Fev was there. I remember the constant reference to the damage selfish Fev did to Setanta when Setanta was in the box seat for the mark. I remember the week after, with a bably bruised back, Setanta kicked 4 against Freo and named in our best. I also remember that after that Freo game, Setanta couldn't get back on the field with the injury he sustained against Fev. Pretty amazing to take all those contested marks and kick those 4 goals (literally on his last legs) against Freo....then you have the audacity to write this...



When Setanta made it back in Rnd 18 (still not 100%) after that injury we won against North and Geelong with him in the forwardline.
Unfortunately, Jamison, Austin and Waite were injured for the remainder of the season, and Setanta was selected at FB whilst Cloke was selected to be the big target ...repeat...whilst Setanta was defending. We also won the next 2 games with Setanta playing as a defender. Then in Rnd 22 Setanta was selcted to play FP because Cloke, Betts and Garlett were dropped for disciplanary reasons. We all know what happened in that game after the 20 min mark in the 1stQ. The ball didn't get to our forwardline and there was a masacre displayed before our eyes.

Cloke was selected ahead of Setanta following a huge loss. I don't think the loss was due to Setanta. Our midfield was masacred. Anyway, the loss freaked everyone out and the MC made changes and took a punt. Cloke was selected as our tall target ahead of Setanta.

Cloke looked slow and cumbersome and didn't do that much, got the first, missed a couple, one very important shot to seal the game, and the next thing we know is Cloke is delisted and Setanta is retained and becomes the go to man in 2010.

There was a reason why Cloke was delisted. Too slow....miles too slow.

For a big man, Setanta is very good when the ball hits the ground. He has pace, is mobile and yes his opponets are weary of his defensive strengths. That's why you don't see his opponents run off him and bounce the ball and leave him in their wake like they did with Cloke, Fisher and Wiggins. The modern game requires pace, amongst other things. If you have the pace of Cloke and Fisher, you are going to get found out.



But he has proven to understand them on other occassions. If he needs to get back to basics and work on parts of his game, then I agree drop him and give him the time and environment to improve on those things before the finals, but to put a line through his name is really extreme. Especially now that he's proven he can be a bonafide Fwd target.

I do believe we need to keep experimenting with the forwardline till we have a few options developed, because I don't want to be experimenting come finals time. We have time to get it right, as there's plenty of time to iron out some issues with Setanta, Henderson, Hampson or Kreuzer playing in a KPF role come finals. To think Cloke or Hartlett, well that's not going to happen. To think Fisher and Wiggins in the finals when the pressure and pace is at a scale they couldn't compete in, well that's suicide and pointless imo.

Work with what you've got, and pick on form. That should do the job for 2010.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

See bondi you go on about my bias against him then make the statement that he was ok in the dry against Melbourne . He had 3 possesions to half time obe of which was a free before the ball was bounce so 2 possessions in half a game of forty in general play and you say that's ok

but I'm the one that is biased

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Setanta has one more chance in my eyes.....I just can't see the MC giving it to him with Hendo in decent form.

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You want the flame? Give us the marbles!!

See bondi, you spelt receive wrong, this means Setanta is not up to it and Sydney Blue is vindicated....