I sure hope Kruezer can kick 80+ goals for us next year

what's the point in winning 8 games next year when we can tank and get the number one draft pick again?

Yes, I am just having a go at you, it's not unreasonable to want your team to tank from now onwards but it is unreasonable to call for the tank after about 6 rounds and then start another poll just so you can say 'I was right all along'.

GAV I look forward to you supporting the team all season next year, but if we are losing I expect you to call for a good tank to get the number one pick in the country again.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

what what WHAT???

No

He is supporting the club by wanting us to bring the best possible players in capable of winning games.
On the other hand youre hoping we come across injured and lame teams so we steal a win so you can get your jolliies that will last you 7 days....



There are different ways of supporting your club.

You choose the way that suits you... (7 days)..... and we can choose the way that suits us... (TEN YEARS).... and when Carlton does get blokes like Gibbs and Murphy or Kreuzer inbto the side anyway .. you can pretend it had nothing to do with finishing low..... BUT WE ALL KNOW BETTER!!!... some people are realistic and some people believe in having their palms read and live in lalalaland...

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I don't think our list is altogether that bad, it's just that it has holes and is terribly exposed by bad game plan and/or a structured team.

IMO, Walker, Murphy, Gibbs, Carrazzo, Houlihan, Stevens, Setanta, Fevola, Lappin, Waite, Fisher, Betts, Kennedy, Hartlett, Thornton, Scotland, Bentick, Cloke and Kouta are all good enough for AFL. This is not necessarily the team I'd pick, or my top players, but it is a group of about 20 players that I think at one stage of their career or another would be in the starting 18 of an AFL side. There are players like Russell etc. that may make it, and kids with potential, that may all be in our future.

My point is this. With a good game plan, we can cover our holes to a certain extent, and accentuate our strengths. We can work on our weaknesses and learn to compensate for them. With a few more years of development, we may not have holes, and after a few more drafts, we'll have really good prospects.

So, what does it take? A new coaching panel, fix the attitude, another two years of development and recruitment/drafting, and we could make the finals. There is a list of players that can play. They're not all stars, but they can play at a good level if organised well.

The AFL will probably change the rules again next year. And then change them again a couple of years after that.

Even with a few good picks and Jarusa's "natural improvement" I don't see this team challenging for a flag any time in the next five to seven years.

I'll feel more hopeful in a year or two if Kennedy is smashing it up, or we draft an outstanding tall, and if we find a ruckman. At this stage though, all we've got to hang our hat on is Murphy, Gibbs and Walker.

Though Gibbs hasn't starred, he oozes something special.

The 2006 draft sucked dogs balls thanks to the AFL. Instead of getting 1 & 2 we got lumped with 1 and a pick in the high teens. How can a priority pick go from being so valuable in 2005, to being devalued in 2006 and then revalued in 2007? It doesn't make sense the way they keep on moving the bloody goalposts.

You can't have a team of top five picks. We have four atm, maybe 5 or 6 next season, and more kids coming through. We have a few guys that can play already. We have the makings of a premiership team, it just needs some overhauling and renovation, see my post above. West Coast, Geelong and Sydney aren't made up of years of tanking and getting good picks. Neither are Collingwood or Hawthorn. They finished low, got a few good picks, traded for more good picks, got a few gems in the various drafts, and are now filled with good kids. Carlton has done worse than them, and are not doing any better now. Don't blame it all on draft penalties. Our trading/recruiting has been awful, theirs has been worthwhile.

Winning 8-10 games next year would be great for the club. Sure, we'd miss out on a top five pick unless we traded, but the team that we had would benefit enourmously knowing that they could play like a consistent, winning side. The first step forward is winning, not losing.

Eventually, you must turn a corner. Losing won't get you to the top, at least not all the way.

I worry that if we keep collecting number one picks we are going to develop a .......ah i dont know how to word it.

...teams are going to come up against us with players picked later in the draft and they are going to have fuel to prove a point. We are leaving ourselves open for more ridicule.

I would like it better if we could develop a game style that doesnt really matter who is playing it. Like what Collingwood reckon they are doing.

The other way might work. You know see how we are going at round ten. If it doesn’t look like we are going to win the flag then lose every game from then on.

Each year the tankers say after this year we will be set up for the next ten but it doesn’t seem as though its the case.

I reckon if we get a chance to win then we take it. Not for my kicks but for the players .

I don’t think we will win another game this year though. One because our players are done even trying to play for the coach and two because swan and pratts plans no doubt involve us finishing with less than four wins.

Its got nothing to do with us or this poll.

synbad read my post again, I said it is not unreasonable to want your team to tank now - don't be blinded by what you want me to write so you can argue again

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

7 days, 10 years... c'mon Synners, it's not like us receiving the PP this year is going to cause the stars to align in a formation that will enable the team to perform at the rate of a thousand Judds per second. With or without Kreuzer you are draw way to big a conclusion between winning 4 games or winning 5... I'm not talking about the nuances of barracking for your team or not in relation to tanking - I'm just saying that there are a dozen kids in our team, and while not all of them will be at Carlton for the next 10 years... there will be a handful of them that will reach the status of elite AFL players by the time Carlton wins it's next premiership... (8



A St Kilda complex?

Whilst not wanting to enter the debate for or against tanking, here are my issues in regards to tanking for the rest of the year to receive the PP.

*failing to build a winning culture/instill belief

*risk of a massive drop in membership

*not showing improvement will deter players from other clubs
wanting to be traded to us

*players at our club will be disenchanted by the same lack of
improvement and might want to leave

and, by the way...

*what pick was Kade Simpson?

*how about Brad Fisher?


Now - if anybody would like to volunteer to create a list in favour of tanking to achieve the PP next year... I'll start it:


*Receive the number 1 pick, and an extra early pick in the second
round... in other words - Kreuzer plus one.

Whilst not wanting to enter the debate for or against tanking, here are my issues in regards to tanking for the rest of the year to receive the PP.

*failing to build a winning culture/instill belief

*risk of a massive drop in membership

*not showing improvement will deter players from other clubs
wanting to be traded to us

*players at our club will be disenchanted by the same lack of
improvement and might want to leave

and, by the way...

*what pick was Kade Simpson?

*how about Brad Fisher?


Now - if anybody would like to volunteer to create a list in favour of tanking to achieve the PP next year... I'll start it:


*Receive the number 1 pick, and an extra early pick in the second
round... in other words - Kreuzer plus one.

Ask some Collingwood people if they are still spewing after tanking in 2005 which enabled them to get picks 2 and 5 instead of just pick 6.
What a shocking move that was by them!!

Yeah, what a pity they didn't get pick 2 and 18.

The way the AFl keep on changing the system is ridiculous. With our record we should've had picks 1 & 2 in 2006.

We don't need to tank for 8 weeks, more like 1 or 2.

We play 3 games interstate - no way we'll win one of those
We play Magpies and Kangas - far too important to them to drop a game against us
We play the Aints - who have flogged us for 4 years

That just leaves the Bummers and the Dees. We seem to be a chance whenever we play the Bummers, but their finals hopes should be enough to get them across the line.

It all probably comes down to the Dees in rnd 22 - ironic that if we lose we get a PP and they drop a spot in the draft order, if they lose we miss the PP and they're better off.

Nil-all draw perhaps?

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"I had to eat"

Now - if anybody would like to volunteer to create a list in favour of tanking to achieve the PP next year... I'll start it:


*Receive the number 1 pick, and an extra early pick in the second
round... in other words - Kreuzer plus one.[/quote]

Sparky, just to clarify, if we dont win more than 4 games this year and finish 15th we get pick 1 and 3 and then 18, not just pick 1 and an early 2nd rd pick.

yeah, but they'd be spweing if they were still doing it 3 seasons in a row...

Tanking/Not Tanking.

No matter what happens from today, Pagan sacked and Ratts appointed interim coach... or Pagan stays... it's pretty plain that at best our current team is possibly good enough to maybe win one or two games for the rest of the year. No ruckman, our best midfielder out for the season, and our matchwinning full-forward a headcase and not really mentally 'on' this season.

So what we're really arguing over is a game or two. A win or two in a bleak dark season.

No-one's talking about deliberately writing off a season that may hold some promise. It's over for us in 2007. Just like the Kangaroos shut up shop at about this time last year, we will too.

Will sending senior players (who could play on with injuries) off for operations destroy the psyche of the club? Will selecting raw kids and giving them game time fail to instill a winning culture? Will playing blokes out of their best position just to see what the possibilities are for the future cause our membership to drop off?

In my opinion, no.

We got 35k members this year not because of what we thought we might see onfield, but because of the promise of being part of something exciting and proactive, courtesy of Dick Pratt and the new board.

And we'll get 35k+ members next year because of the promise of a Kruezer and a Cotchin, and a new coaching set-up and other visible examples of our newfound financial security flowing into the football department.

Finishing with 4 wins is a shit season. Finishing with 5 or 6 wins is a shit season. They're both terrible numbers. The difference is, the former gets us two potentially great players, and the latter gets us one.

In the world of professional sport, where every little advantage is pounced upon... where every angle is explored... there is no way the club is going to not have a process in place to maximise our chances of scoring two picks inside the top 4. No way.

Swann isn't stupid. Pratt is as pragmatic as they come. Icke wants to strengthen his football department with the next great ruckman. Our recruiting guys want to call out two names inside the top 4. Most supporters can handle a bit more pain, if it fits within a grander plan.

From a personal perspective, I honestly have no problem whatsoever with engineering no more wins for the remainder of the season.

Home and Away wins are transient. Premierships are forever.

Amen.

Tanking late in a season is obviously not the only way to win a premiership. But if the opportunity arises it must be grabbed. Every advantage must be gained in the pursuit of number 17. The club used the systems available in the VFL for many decades and it must utilise the new systems available.

Pragmatism over avarice.

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