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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:33 am 
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Bob Chitty

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:44 am
Posts: 835
I’m just as crushed as everyone and am genuinely starting to fear what Cripps will decide to do if things don’t change.

Just curious - when was the last time we got through a first half of footy without losing one or more players?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 11:54 am 
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Stephen Kernahan

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am
Posts: 18035
redback wrote:
keogh wrote:
Fair point you make about our defence BV


Yep fair point.
Then why go a zone defence with makeshift defenders who are limited in that position?
We also had Rowe, Marchbank, Jones.


You lose all control if you play man on man defence. What would you do if you were Brisbane in that instance? Drag Jones, Thomas, Murphy etc out of the forward line by further blocking our forward half and isolate Rowe and Lamb in their forward half with Hipwood and Zorko. Or Taylor, or Beams, or Christensen. They would have kicked 30 goals.
The system works. It requires the personnel to play it out.

We just don't have the players on the park to play out any facets of the game at the moment. Our forward entries are abysmal, all of our midfield disposals are under pressure which continually gives the ball back to the opposition. We had more inside 50s than them yesterday (51? from memory)
They rebounded it 42 times. So 80% of our forward entries ended with their players bringing it out again. Often under little pressure. That creates loose players which results in them taking a mark every second time they go inside forward 50.
We're playing kids that aren't up to it and anyone who is capable of being midfield depth is filling holes in the backline.
Until we get players back, it cant get a lot better.

One thing I will give the coaches a tick for. The temptation must have been significant to play Dow, even though he needed a rest. I give them credit for doing the right thing by the kid and in turn, the longer term future of the club.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:04 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Rexy wrote:
Our backline was 'makeshift'. So why weren't they instructed to simply play man on man using basic defensive fundamentals, rather than a zone defence system they're not used to ?

Simplicity.


Exactly. A bunch of VFL level defenders and some forwards moved back, will never be any good at a zone defence. You need a midfield on top of that to support even the best defenders.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:05 pm 
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formerly King Kenny
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Posts: 20076
redback wrote:
keogh wrote:
Fair point you make about our defence BV


Yep fair point.
Then why go a zone defence with makeshift defenders who are limited in that position?
We also had Rowe, Marchbank, Jones.


Marchbank played wing as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Stephen Silvagni
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Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:46 am
Posts: 28227
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
keogh wrote:
Fair point you make about our defence BV


Yep fair point.
Then why go a zone defence with makeshift defenders who are limited in that position?
We also had Rowe, Marchbank, Jones.


You lose all control if you play man on man defence. What would you do if you were Brisbane in that instance? Drag Jones, Thomas, Murphy etc out of the forward line by further blocking our forward half and isolate Rowe and Lamb in their forward half with Hipwood and Zorko. Or Taylor, or Beams, or Christensen. They would have kicked 30 goals.
The system works. It requires the personnel to play it out.

....


It doesn't work with a makeshift defense. It just confuses them.

Man on man with the most suitable matchups possible is our best option, IMO.

You're just pumping Brisbane players up to boost your argument. They're second last don't forget.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:26 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
We have one A grade midfielder
We have no B or C grade midfielders
We have some D grade midfielders, some who are young, and have been thrown in the deep end, and will get much, much better (i.e. who have A or B grade qualities, further development will help their consistency)

Our list structure is flowered

Compare our list structure to other clubs

Our list is lacking at least 6-8 mids

We are lacking small forwards both in quantity/quality, small forwards that can also run through the midfield in spurts

This is not Bolton's fault, he has lost arguments regarding the list

Other clubs use late selections/rookie list to constantly try new talent

We fill our list spots with castoffs from other clubs

Out of the approx 15 players brought from other clubs, only two have been primarily mids... one is already gone (Palmer), and the other is a D grader, who will get much better (we gave up pick 28)

We made overtures to Smith, Saad, Stringer and Rockliff last trade period.... they all went elsewhere, why?

The opposition know if they limit Cripps we're cooked, Pies used Pendlebury early in the year, PA used Wines, so they're happy sacrificing their best player to do so... even if Cripps isn't stopped we're still cooked, we have no midfield, no defensive pressure out of our midfield or forward half, which can cripple our fragile defensive structures

Then add our injury list and the mismanagement of our injured players with our flowered medical department

Half of the team yesterday would not get a game elsewhere or be on any other list

Bolton has made mistakes, but he's severely handcuffed

Bolton isn't the problem


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 2063
ColourMan wrote:
We have one A grade midfielder
We have no B or C grade midfielders
We have some D grade midfielders, some who are young, and have been thrown in the deep end, and will get much, much better (i.e. who have A or B grade qualities, further development will help their consistency)

Our list structure is flowered

Compare our list structure to other clubs

Our list is lacking at least 6-8 mids

We are lacking small forwards both in quantity/quality, small forwards that can also run through the midfield in spurts

This is not Bolton's fault, he has lost arguments regarding the list

Other clubs use late selections/rookie list to constantly try new talent

We fill our list spots with castoffs from other clubs

Out of the approx 15 players brought from other clubs, only two have been primarily mids... one is already gone (Palmer), and the other is a D grader, who will get much better (we gave up pick 28)

We made overtures to Smith, Saad, Stringer and Rockliff last trade period.... they all went elsewhere, why?

The opposition know if they limit Cripps we're cooked, Pies used Pendlebury early in the year, PA used Wines, so they're happy sacrificing their best player to do so... even if Cripps isn't stopped we're still cooked, we have no midfield, no defensive pressure out of our midfield or forward half, which can cripple our fragile defensive structures

Then add our injury list and the mismanagement of our injured players with our flowered medical department

Half of the team yesterday would not get a game elsewhere or be on any other list

Bolton has made mistakes, but he's severely handcuffed

Bolton isn't the problem


For me, the biggest issue for the blues is the losing culture that has now embedded itself in the club

Although important, no amount of changes to a list will resolve this

The approach taken to disregard the wins/losses and focus on "the little wins" has backfired

Nothing beats the development of a player when winning games

They are completely demoralised at the moment

That's why the balance between a good core of senior players was paramount to establishing a winning culture and development of the younger playrts


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:58 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
WOW wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
We have one A grade midfielder
We have no B or C grade midfielders
We have some D grade midfielders, some who are young, and have been thrown in the deep end, and will get much, much better (i.e. who have A or B grade qualities, further development will help their consistency)

Our list structure is flowered

Compare our list structure to other clubs

Our list is lacking at least 6-8 mids

We are lacking small forwards both in quantity/quality, small forwards that can also run through the midfield in spurts

This is not Bolton's fault, he has lost arguments regarding the list

Other clubs use late selections/rookie list to constantly try new talent

We fill our list spots with castoffs from other clubs

Out of the approx 15 players brought from other clubs, only two have been primarily mids... one is already gone (Palmer), and the other is a D grader, who will get much better (we gave up pick 28)

We made overtures to Smith, Saad, Stringer and Rockliff last trade period.... they all went elsewhere, why?

The opposition know if they limit Cripps we're cooked, Pies used Pendlebury early in the year, PA used Wines, so they're happy sacrificing their best player to do so... even if Cripps isn't stopped we're still cooked, we have no midfield, no defensive pressure out of our midfield or forward half, which can cripple our fragile defensive structures

Then add our injury list and the mismanagement of our injured players with our flowered medical department

Half of the team yesterday would not get a game elsewhere or be on any other list

Bolton has made mistakes, but he's severely handcuffed

Bolton isn't the problem


For me, the biggest issue for the blues is the losing culture that has now embedded itself in the club

Although important, no amount of changes to a list will resolve this

The approach taken to disregard the wins/losses and focus on "the little wins" has backfired

Nothing beats the development of a player when winning games

They are completely demoralised at the moment

That's why the balance between a good core of senior players was paramount to establishing a winning culture and development of the younger playrts


Agree, exactly why Bolton was against trading Gibbs

Bolton was told senior mid(s) would be brought in to replace Gibbs, otherwise Gibbs wouldn't be traded.

What's happening is no surprise...

Can't win games with no midfield


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:03 pm 
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Wayne Johnston

Joined: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am
Posts: 8176
Hornet wrote:
If playing a game plan that has failed us miserably all year is evidence of tanking... then Bolts is a @#$%&! genius.
I question why we're playing a zone defense that's dependent on pressure from players up the ground, when we have the worst midfield group in the comp. I'm not in favour of sakcing the coach yet, but we desperately need to do something about his support staff and see what evolves from there.


This captures my frustration as well. Bolton has shown every sign of being a fantastic manager of young men. Also we've been able to clearly see what the MC have been trying to do (game style, etc.) the last 2 years. But this year it's been an absolute dog's breakfast. I can get that they got it wrong at the start of the year, with being overattacking. But even since then we seem to wildly oscillate in what we're trying to do. We try and shut down the good sides. But then we play the average sides and we seem to try and play a completely different style of footy that simply hasn't and cannot work with our current stocks.

We were never going to win yesterday with the team we had in. But we were always going to be thrashed trying to play that kind of footy. And what possible benefit can that be for anyone?

We can be patient. But only if we can see what we're trying to do. Otherwise ...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Rod Ashman

Joined: Sat Jul 30, 2011 10:17 pm
Posts: 2063
ColourMan wrote:
WOW wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
We have one A grade midfielder
We have no B or C grade midfielders
We have some D grade midfielders, some who are young, and have been thrown in the deep end, and will get much, much better (i.e. who have A or B grade qualities, further development will help their consistency)

Our list structure is flowered

Compare our list structure to other clubs

Our list is lacking at least 6-8 mids

We are lacking small forwards both in quantity/quality, small forwards that can also run through the midfield in spurts

This is not Bolton's fault, he has lost arguments regarding the list

Other clubs use late selections/rookie list to constantly try new talent

We fill our list spots with castoffs from other clubs

Out of the approx 15 players brought from other clubs, only two have been primarily mids... one is already gone (Palmer), and the other is a D grader, who will get much better (we gave up pick 28)

We made overtures to Smith, Saad, Stringer and Rockliff last trade period.... they all went elsewhere, why?

The opposition know if they limit Cripps we're cooked, Pies used Pendlebury early in the year, PA used Wines, so they're happy sacrificing their best player to do so... even if Cripps isn't stopped we're still cooked, we have no midfield, no defensive pressure out of our midfield or forward half, which can cripple our fragile defensive structures

Then add our injury list and the mismanagement of our injured players with our flowered medical department

Half of the team yesterday would not get a game elsewhere or be on any other list

Bolton has made mistakes, but he's severely handcuffed

Bolton isn't the problem


For me, the biggest issue for the blues is the losing culture that has now embedded itself in the club

Although important, no amount of changes to a list will resolve this

The approach taken to disregard the wins/losses and focus on "the little wins" has backfired

Nothing beats the development of a player when winning games

They are completely demoralised at the moment

That's why the balance between a good core of senior players was paramount to establishing a winning culture and development of the younger playrts


Agree, exactly why Bolton was against trading Gibbs

Bolton was told senior mid(s) would be brought in to replace Gibbs, otherwise Gibbs wouldn't be traded.

What's happening is no surprise...

Can't win games with no midfield


Keeping Gibbs and attracting a Devon Smith would have been huge for our development

That's why we won't attract a good FA and fall further behind the rest of the league

Can't simply rely on draft in FA environment


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:16 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:01 pm
Posts: 34533
Location: The Brown Wedge
The reason we don't have A graders is because we're losing......or not even competing. If we had a decent crack, but experience and skill held us back, then we'd say we've got A graders in-waiting and things will change. But those talented young kids that came into our club via the draft process are shells of their former selves. This losing culture is doing damage to their long-term viability at this club.

The 'structure' Bolts has them playing has removed any confidence and desire previously good players ever had.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Bruce Comben
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Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:03 pm
Posts: 24
Bring back Ratts to take over Mark Rileys old job...
At least you then have a "Clarkson Academy" trained and head coach experienced Carlton man in our corner....
And if Bolts can't take the step up we all hope he will do we have Ratts ready to take charge.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:26 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2651
Steve_C7 wrote:
redback wrote:
Hornet wrote:
If playing a game plan that has failed us miserably all year is evidence of tanking... then Bolts is a @#$%&! genius.
I question why we're playing a zone defense that's dependent on pressure from players up the ground, when we have the worst midfield group in the comp. I question our forward set up that almost always sees us bombing to an outnumbered forward... I actually felt sorry for Charlie yesterday.

In reality I wish we were good enough to tank.

I'm not in favour of sakcing the coach yet, but we desperately need to do something about his support staff and see what evolves from there.



I'm so !@#$ trying to figure out what they are trying.
We know that zone defence is redacted, but we still go to it.
We know our mids are young and Cripps needs help yet he plays the wrong personnel through there.
We know we play a drab game style and we are picked off constantly/
We know our forward entries lack speed and diversity and to our disadvantage but persist with it.
We know we play under done and average players but continue to do so.
What other outcome could there be?

Before I hear it's injuries we have lost Doc and Gibbs from last year and every team has injuries. That doesn't explain the lack of effort, selections and game plan.


If injuries are no excuse, then why is last years Grand Finalists getting of scott free in the media and on this site and yet a team that has copped probably a worse injury hit getting blasted from pillar to post?

We have won 5 fewer games than last year and yet adelaide have won 8 fewer games thus far.

I hate comparing ourselves against other teams as a rationale to make an argument, however I feel this thread needs some perspective.

I can fully agree with some arguments around team selection and can't understand why McKay isn't getting a game, however there are allot of players that are carrying injuries because there is not enough fit players to cover them



Steve like i discussed with donstuie in the injury thread we are missing only 3 regular dependable players. Not up and coming, not potential.
Murphy, doc and Marchbank that's it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 33618
Location: COMFORTABLY DISSATISFIED
Re: D Smith.

There are different versions of this rumour, but the core theme is that he wasn't considered "medically safe".

Since he's been at * he's not missed a game and playing career-best footy.

If this is true, it says to me that either
a) Our medicos got it wrong
b) Our medicos (or Smith) had no faith in their ability to manage him
c) * had better drugs (hardy har har)

We harp on injuries and player management, but you can't tell me potential FA's and trade targets wouldn't look at what's happened to the wellbeing of this team as a big factor in their decision to move across.

The coach is FAR from the only issue we're facing.

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WADA medical director Dr Alan Vernec describes Essendon* FC drug case as biggest scandal in team sport the world of sport has seen. #WC2WB

#GUILTY


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:28 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
WOW wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
WOW wrote:
ColourMan wrote:
We have one A grade midfielder
We have no B or C grade midfielders
We have some D grade midfielders, some who are young, and have been thrown in the deep end, and will get much, much better (i.e. who have A or B grade qualities, further development will help their consistency)

Our list structure is flowered

Compare our list structure to other clubs

Our list is lacking at least 6-8 mids

We are lacking small forwards both in quantity/quality, small forwards that can also run through the midfield in spurts

This is not Bolton's fault, he has lost arguments regarding the list

Other clubs use late selections/rookie list to constantly try new talent

We fill our list spots with castoffs from other clubs

Out of the approx 15 players brought from other clubs, only two have been primarily mids... one is already gone (Palmer), and the other is a D grader, who will get much better (we gave up pick 28)

We made overtures to Smith, Saad, Stringer and Rockliff last trade period.... they all went elsewhere, why?

The opposition know if they limit Cripps we're cooked, Pies used Pendlebury early in the year, PA used Wines, so they're happy sacrificing their best player to do so... even if Cripps isn't stopped we're still cooked, we have no midfield, no defensive pressure out of our midfield or forward half, which can cripple our fragile defensive structures

Then add our injury list and the mismanagement of our injured players with our flowered medical department

Half of the team yesterday would not get a game elsewhere or be on any other list

Bolton has made mistakes, but he's severely handcuffed

Bolton isn't the problem


For me, the biggest issue for the blues is the losing culture that has now embedded itself in the club

Although important, no amount of changes to a list will resolve this

The approach taken to disregard the wins/losses and focus on "the little wins" has backfired

Nothing beats the development of a player when winning games

They are completely demoralised at the moment

That's why the balance between a good core of senior players was paramount to establishing a winning culture and development of the younger playrts


Agree, exactly why Bolton was against trading Gibbs

Bolton was told senior mid(s) would be brought in to replace Gibbs, otherwise Gibbs wouldn't be traded.

What's happening is no surprise...

Can't win games with no midfield


Keeping Gibbs and attracting a Devon Smith would have been huge for our development

That's why we won't attract a good FA and fall further behind the rest of the league

Can't simply rely on draft in FA environment




Agree, getting Rockliff would have been great too (as well as keeping Gibbs and getting Smith).

Lookout at how many quality mids PA have and they still went after Rockliff

Port Adelaide managed to attract multiple FAs

Bombers managed to get multiple players to commit

We need to get everything right, the draft, trades, rookie list, salary cap, FAs

Even priority picks... an additional decent player helps (assuming we get the selection right)

Alex Rance was a priority pick at pick 19 or 20


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 1291
Donstuie wrote:
Re: D Smith.

There are different versions of this rumour, but the core theme is that he wasn't considered "medically safe".

Since he's been at * he's not missed a game and playing career-best footy.

If this is true, it says to me that either
a) Our medicos got it wrong
b) Our medicos (or Smith) had no faith in their ability to manage him
c) * had better drugs (hardy har har)

We harp on injuries and player management, but you can't tell me potential FA's and trade targets wouldn't look at what's happened to the wellbeing of this team as a big factor in their decision to move across.

The coach is FAR from the only issue we're facing.


Smith chose the Bombers

Smith had 2 priorities, winning and rehab


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:45 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 3:17 pm
Posts: 2651
Blue Vain wrote:
redback wrote:
keogh wrote:
Fair point you make about our defence BV


Yep fair point.
Then why go a zone defence with makeshift defenders who are limited in that position?
We also had Rowe, Marchbank, Jones.


You lose all control if you play man on man defence. What would you do if you were Brisbane in that instance? Drag Jones, Thomas, Murphy etc out of the forward line by further blocking our forward half and isolate Rowe and Lamb in their forward half with Hipwood and Zorko. Or Taylor, or Beams, or Christensen. They would have kicked 30 goals.
The system works. It requires the personnel to play it out.

We just don't have the players on the park to play out any facets of the game at the moment. Our forward entries are abysmal, all of our midfield disposals are under pressure which continually gives the ball back to the opposition. We had more inside 50s than them yesterday (51? from memory)
They rebounded it 42 times. So 80% of our forward entries ended with their players bringing it out again. Often under little pressure. That creates loose players which results in them taking a mark every second time they go inside forward 50.
We're playing kids that aren't up to it and anyone who is capable of being midfield depth is filling holes in the backline.
Until we get players back, it cant get a lot better.

One thing I will give the coaches a tick for. The temptation must have been significant to play Dow, even though he needed a rest. I give them credit for doing the right thing by the kid and in turn, the longer term future of the club.


You're all over the place.
Firstly the system doesn't work or haven't you been paying attention.
If they are there to defend then defend. They make a adjustment we make a adjustment. If we have defenders than teach them how to defend not just guard grass and look like chooks.
We had inefficient inside 50's which are irrelevant because of the entry and no support because of everyone is out of position or we give the opposition time to set up and then we are out of position o the rebound. How is that a game plan that works.
What players are you counting on coming back? Look at the injury thread and acquaint yourself with our injury stats. The only ones missing for some time that are not potential players have been doc, murphy and marchbank, so enough on our bleak injury plagued season.
You give them a tick for resting the kid who got a rising star last week and just came off a break instead of finally playing against another team full of kids. Do you give them a tick for having one kp forward and four others guarding grass.
Do you give them a tick for the protecting the wings and leaving tghe middle unprotected all year.
Do you give them a tick for playing under done players.
Do you give them a tick for playing players in positions that they can't manage and refusing to acknowledged it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:53 pm 
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Craig Bradley
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Posts: 6748
Location: Echuca
Lets simplify it. Bolton as we have been told is head coach/ teacher. He has a game plan that he sees as the way forward. That game plan would appear to be flawed.

OR
The majority of the players are dumbarses unable to follow instructions. That IMO would be a bit of stretch.

SO
Where does that leave us ? Back with the previously mentioned game plan. Which then leads us back to the Coach.....

Too simplistic ?

_________________
The problem with Socialism is, you eventually run out of other people's money.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:03 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Posts: 34533
Location: The Brown Wedge
murraycray wrote:
Lets simplify it. Bolton as we have been told is head coach/ teacher. He has a game plan that he sees as the way forward. That game plan would appear to be flawed.

OR
The majority of the players are dumbarses unable to follow instructions. That IMO would be a bit of stretch.

SO
Where does that leave us ? Back with the previously mentioned game plan. Which then leads us back to the Coach.....

Too simplistic ?


Nailed it!

We've taken players in recent years that everyone claimed would be drafted at or around that spot. We have a habit of turning chocolates into boiled lollies.

For delisting spuds to bring in potatoes, then use the excuse of 'synergy' as to why the group aren't doing what they've been told.

Bolts has cut way too hard and he's failed to bring in capable footballers to replace those he let go.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:33 pm 
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Harry Vallence

Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 11:06 am
Posts: 1826
The Duke wrote:
murraycray wrote:
Lets simplify it. Bolton as we have been told is head coach/ teacher. He has a game plan that he sees as the way forward. That game plan would appear to be flawed.

OR
The majority of the players are dumbarses unable to follow instructions. That IMO would be a bit of stretch.

SO
Where does that leave us ? Back with the previously mentioned game plan. Which then leads us back to the Coach.....

Too simplistic ?


Nailed it!

We've taken players in recent years that everyone claimed would be drafted at or around that spot. We have a habit of turning chocolates into boiled lollies.

For delisting spuds to bring in potatoes, then use the excuse of 'synergy' as to why the group aren't doing what they've been told.

Bolts has cut way too hard and he's failed to bring in capable footballers to replace those he let go.

So now Bolts is the list manager as well, so what does sos do nothing!! You are now talking absolute crap. Go away!!


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