I think I agree with you, BKB, in summarising that the culture is still shit, it's just a different kind of shit to pre-Judd Carlton?

..the Judd deal was more than simply his on-field game.. ..and even if it was, there's plenty of games where he willed the entire team over the line.. ..how much was his greatness [plenty], and how much was a team focus reliance upon him is another question.. ..but the off-field benefits of Judd was enormous.. ..our team 'culture' was in the bin before we got him, he helped drag the club up the ladder both on field and off field..

..the issue was/is, that after getting Judd we just expected him and a few number 1's to carry everyone else for wins and flags..

..lookit us, we had Kennedy and we thought he was enough up fwd.. ..we lose him, the following year get Hendo and again, 1 is enough.. ..it's like we draft/trade in a good KPP, and we stop thinking about adding quality kpps to the list, and figure we're good, sop we'll just top up kpps later in the draft, and hope for the best..

..currently our KPF stocks are hinging upon Waite, an injury prone veteran, Bolt,, a very raw rookie, and Mitchel, a later pick that's also so far looking fragile and very 1 dimensional, so he's gonna have to be very very good on fi9eld to be of good use..

..to add to this we have Hammer, a project ruck that we're playing fwd because he's tall.. ..now i believe firmly he can be good up fwd, but less so as the main KPF, and more as a 3rd tall option playing deep.. ..and we have Rowe, a state league player that tries hard and we all wish him the best, cos he's a good news story and we're desperate for anyone to stand up, up fwd..

..and our best option up fwd, is needed down back..

You're saying that between 2002 to 2013 we would not have played a final without Judd?

Law of averages says that's highly unlikely. I mean, sure, Richmond are the exception to that rule, but....yeahnah, pointless to speculate, given that one finals win hardly makes or breaks the deal does it?

Yep most those seasons we would of won 2 or 3 games less pretty clear cut

This reflecting on a Judd armfield trade is rather funny compare there output over the period to Kennedy and masten it's just not even close

The major error would appear to be not selecting cotchin

Judd Murphy cotchin is one insane midfield

Starting to feel a bit like Pagan.

..the Judd deal was more than simply his on-field game.. ..and even if it was, there's plenty of games where he willed the entire team over the line.. ..how much was his greatness [plenty], and how much was a team focus reliance upon him is another question.. ..but the off-field benefits of Judd was enormous.. ..our team 'culture' was in the bin before we got him, he helped drag the club up the ladder both on field and off field..

..the issue was/is, that after getting Judd we just expected him and a few number 1's to carry everyone else for wins and flags..

..lookit us, we had Kennedy and we thought he was enough up fwd.. ..we lose him, the following year get Hendo and again, 1 is enough.. ..it's like we draft/trade in a good KPP, and we stop thinking about adding quality kpps to the list, and figure we're good, sop we'll just top up kpps later in the draft, and hope for the best..

..currently our KPF stocks are hinging upon Waite, an injury prone veteran, Bolt,, a very raw rookie, and Mitchel, a later pick that's also so far looking fragile and very 1 dimensional, so he's gonna have to be very very good on fi9eld to be of good use..

..to add to this we have Hammer, a project ruck that we're playing fwd because he's tall.. ..now i believe firmly he can be good up fwd, but less so as the main KPF, and more as a 3rd tall option playing deep.. ..and we have Rowe, a state league player that tries hard and we all wish him the best, cos he's a good news story and we're desperate for anyone to stand up, up fwd..

..and our best option up fwd, is needed down back..

This reflecting on a Judd armfield trade is rather funny compare there output over the period to Kennedy and masten it's just not even close

The major error would appear to be not selecting cotchin

Judd Murphy cotchin is one insane midfield

This reflecting on a Judd armfield trade is rather funny compare there output over the period to Kennedy and masten it's just not even close

The major error would appear to be not selecting cotchin

Judd Murphy cotchin is one insane midfield

I'll take that one further. Just give West Coast pick 1 and 3, miss out on Kreuzer and keep Kennedy. We love Kreuzer but in that lovely thing called hindsight we'd have ended up quite a bit better off seeing we have 3 rucks now but still trying to develop that KP forward. Cotchin would've been great but Kennedy would be more valuable to us given our current list structure.

Sounded good at the time though.

Not good at the trade table are we?
Only recent trade we came out on top of was the Fev one.

But how far off a premiership would we be if this week we added

- Trent Cotchin
- Josh Kennedy
- Sam Jacobs

To our side and took out:

- Matthew Kreuzer
- Marcus Davies
And either Rowe or Casboult