Moshe

Where are the assumptions?
As far as paying the relevant salaries is concerned, that's a pretty cheap get out considering your quite happy to have an opinion otherwise, why when you are challenged to come up with something constructive other than potshots do you come up with such a pissweak reply, could it be that like me you are sitting on the outside with no real understanding of what is going on in the club.

I also pay my membership but I don't consider it to give me the right to take potshots just because I am pissed off with the way things are going, I have those emotions during the game and say and think things that in hindsight are wrong and unreasonable, it is amazing how we can be the greatest coaches and tacticians sitting in the stands under no pressure.

I can't come up with a plan to fix the problem as I am not in the inner sanctum and don't know everything that is going on, nor do I suspect do you.

I do know however that a lot of different things have hit us at once which has limited options of what we can do.

I have never at any stage stated that we are improving or that we need another 5 years.

I also don't know if Ratten is going to be able to take us to the next step, but I do know that he is contracted and should be entitled to see at least next season out before we knife him to death and i t pisses me off no end to see how easily we turn on our own, without being prepared to look at all of th e circumstances.

Moshe

Where are the assumptions?
As far as paying the relevant salaries is concerned, that's a pretty cheap get out considering your quite happy to have an opinion otherwise, why when you are challenged to come up with something constructive other than potshots do you come up with such a pissweak reply, could it be that like me you are sitting on the outside with no real understanding of what is going on in the club.

I also pay my membership but I don't consider it to give me the right to take potshots just because I am pissed off with the way things are going, I have those emotions during the game and say and think things that in hindsight are wrong and unreasonable, it is amazing how we can be the greatest coaches and tacticians sitting in the stands under no pressure.

I can't come up with a plan to fix the problem as I am not in the inner sanctum and don't know everything that is going on, nor do I suspect do you.

I do know however that a lot of different things have hit us at once which has limited options of what we can do.

I have never at any stage stated that we are improving or that we need another 5 years.

I also don't know if Ratten is going to be able to take us to the next step, but I do know that he is contracted and should be entitled to see at least next season out before we knife him to death and i t pisses me off no end to see how easily we turn on our own, without being prepared to look at all of th e circumstances.

......

If you're going to ask me a question relating to something I said, then please use the QUOTE function. Otherwise, it's so hard to follow and makes it impossible to debate.

Anyway, you seem to assume that I'm saying something about getting rid of the coach during the year. I haven't done that at all, so you're arguing with a straw man.

If you want to debate my point - here it is ...... again:

- It's 16 years since we won a flag.
- It's 13 years since we played in a GF.
- It's 11 years since we finished in the top 4.
- In that time we've had 3 opportunities to pick a great coach;
- In that time, we've had 1 no2 pick, 3 no1 picks, 1 no6 pick, 1 no9 pick, 1 no12 pick PLUS Judd PLUS fluking Simmo and Robbo with (relatively) late picks;
- In that time, we've also had a bit of luck with some good rookie picks; eg Betts, Garlett, Thornton;
- In that time, 10 other teams have won flags (including basket cases like North Melbourne and Port Adelaide);
- In that time, Collingwood has managed to play in 2 losing GFs, bottom out, rebuild, win a flag, and stay on top;
- In that time WC has managed to bottom out, rebuild to win a flag, bottom out again after losing arguably the 2 best footballers in the country, and rebuild AGAIN to be near the top again.

I could go on, but the bottom line is that whether it's our recruiting, our development, our mentoring, our coaching, or some combination of these ....... Carlton seems to be a dud organisation. It's main mission is winning flags and it's failing miserably, while at the same time pissing off a large number of supporters.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to understand. This is all I'm saying.

But when you attack me for every little point that EVERYONE ELSE you disagree with is saying, it's hard to keep the debate on track.

WE ARE NOT DOING WELL. And, pointedly, we are definitely not improving. I'll accept (but still disagree with) that we're treading water, but to say we're improving, as some on this thread have suggested, is almost as funny as having a tattooed Vanessa Amarosi advertise Clear skin products (which I saw on TV today - no kidding!!!).