It is always disappointing when you write off players before they have had a few pre-seasons under their belt. Still that is the way you like to roll I guess. Interesting to see Rioli given a run on the HBF over the weekend and Buddy a run up on the wing. Who would have thought that versatility is the name of the game these days. We have more than enough players that can rotate through the midfield.

As per normal the old age question is..........Tell me who we should have picked and why and then we can dissect your thought process over a few hundred pages. Or perhaps are you abit gun shy (read as; cowardly) to do so. It is far easier to tell a person how he got it wrong rather than to tell a person how to get it right.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Agree Cazzeman, as I was told by the Chairman some years ago "don't tell me the problem, tell me the solution"

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I need some new conspiracy theories; all my others have come true.

I don't think it is right to pigeon hole any player.

I know at Collingwood they don't.
Effectively what they do is develop.
They have developed a squad of players who can mix it up through the midfield.
I think that's what Brizzy Blue shows us....even with Kreuzer...(love that one).

We choose the best available at the draft...no problem with that.
As long as we develop them.

Ratten and Carrazzo were Back Pocket players.
I'm glad they weren't pigeon holed.

Mark Maclure started as a HBF...so did Hamill (I'll bite my tongue in case SOC attacks me again).

Bottom line is we are developing a aquad of midfielders, and some can play there longer than others.
We have a young list so we have plenty of time to develop stamina...


oh yeah...we still have a list to win the flag this year.

Onya Sinners...keep 'em on their toes...but do consider the good points Cazz makes too...they aren't all senile and foolish

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Gordon Collis was our CHF; but won his Brownlow at CHB.

Ratts was a backpocket until Ken Judge thought he should play midfield and learn from Diesel.

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No ones listening till you make a mistake.

Very thorough analysis

Result......Synbad youv'e been shown again to be wrong

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Go BLues

Somehow..........that is correct.

More than ever, the game is more about adaptability and versatility.
The days of the half back flanker are virtually gone or very limited. With limited bench numbers and shorter stints on the pine, we need opportunities to rest players on field and the flanks and pockets are the only options.
Thats why players like Brock are finding it increasingly difficult to find a place in the game. It's not his run and spread that will be his biggest obstacle this year but the position he occupies when he's not on the ball. Can he go back or forward and contribute to a reasonable standard? I suspect not. He'll occupy a bench position which brings us back to 2 rotational spots. Not sustainable.

Looking through our list, who really can contribute substantially when they're not on ball? Gibbs definitely. Murphy and Simmo are improving as small forwards and Robbo has his moments.
Lets look at the options. If we follow last years model, AJ plays small defensive back, Duigan plays half back and Laidler plays as a medium tall defender. Throw in Jamo and Henderson and you have 5 defenders who have virtually no adaptability. That's 5 spots in the backline that give us zero rotational ability.
So out of 18 positions on the field, that gives us 11 (including mids) positions that limit our rotation immediately. Throw in key forward roles which may offer minor relief for our resting ruckman and we have one back flank, 2 forward pockets and 2 forward flanks to supplement a reduced bench. Less than ideal and it makes us very predictable.

That's why the days of the specialist flankers and pockets are going out of the game. If a player cant go into the midfield and contribute. He's a liability.
IMO, that's the challenge for our recruiters and coaching staff over the next few years because the maturer bodies we've introduced over the past couple of years have strengthened our structure but conversely, they've reduced our flexibility.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

As a stand alone rationale, that doesn't follow history.
Once upon a time, there were NO rotations and we had two HBF in every team. Lack of rotations does not constitute the reason for the death of the HBFer.
Last year, Yarran played 95% of his time on the HBF. He rarely played midfield and then only when he had been dragged to the goal line. Therefore, it stands to reason that he was a HBF, albeit an attacking one. Laidler was really a HBF as well, although not as attacking.
Those two were among our best players all year.
There will always be HBF. Some will be more attacking than others and perhaps some will run in the midfield for stints and perhaps some will be converted from HBF to midfielder or other role.
Walker played a lot of footy at HBF/BP and is now our most attacking medium tall.
We can learn from history. Class players have always been versatile. John James was recruited as a forward and once kicked 35 goals in a game for St Pat's College from CHF. The following year he played for Carltona nd won his Brownlow subsequently as a....HBF.
Alex Jesaulenko played a lot of his footy at HBF but as we know, he was a pretty fair FF and had the occasional run in the midfield. Had he not been a smoker, he may have ended up a great ruck rover but I doubt he would have ever developed the tank for it.
We have a lot of playeers who are mid sized, flexible and HBFer types that can be taught to run through the midfield. It matters not whether they were drafted as mids or HBF or HFF for that matter. Betts and Garlett will spend time inthe midfield this year as will Yarran and even Joseph and Touhy when the need arises.
To me, this whole thread has developed into a circular argument where nobody will give ground because their opinion seems to be the only correct one. It shouold have been moved to the 'Talking Recruitment' page weeks ago because it is no longer about how close we are, just whether our recruiters have recruited the right players.

The fact is, we have improved every year for several years and last year we were within one kick of a prelim. We didn't miss out because we have too many HBFers. We missed out because we missed easy goals, had a critical injury one week out from the game and maybe Walker should have had a free in the 10 yard square.

We were THAT close. A small improvement across the board and a bit of luck with our injury list and we can do it.

IMO, we will have to beat Hawthorn because I see them and not Collingwood or Geelong as the big improvers. Collingwood is a good team with as far as I can see, not a lot of improvement available because they had a good draw and no real injury problems for most the season and Geelong will be thereabouts again but they have lost a couple of good players and they are still the oldest list I think. We whould round out the top 4. From then on, it's a new game.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

But Synbad doesn't get paid the big bucks to make those calls

Very well thought out post BV - thats why last year I was a little disappointed not seeing the likes of Eddie and Garlett get a run through the middle . You can't have your 'A' team in the middle the whole game and although Carlton is a very quick side we get found out a bit when Judd , Murph and Gibbs are not on the ball - Our second string is not quite good enough with Ellard, Armfield , Robbo and Simpson

Walker , Betts ,Yarren Joseph , Garlett , Russell must become part of the on ball rotation otherwise we will suffer back end season burn out like we have the last couple of years

Ratts started to experiment last year but it wasn't until round 22 against StKilda

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Against teams that matter I reckon Jamo and Henderson would play 100% TOG and the other backman very close to 90% TOG.
Scarlett, Gibson, Reid etc don't leave the ground or move to other positions. In games that matter the back 6 get very little rest or move to other positions. Premeirship teams are built around a stable backline, I am not too sure any club is looking at rotating at least 4-5 of the back 6 at all. As far as the forward line goes the two key position blokes stay there all day in the games that count, Dawes, Cloke, JPod, Hawkins etc. They might come off for a rest but they would be on the ground 90% plus as well.

The strong clubs are no different to us.

As per normal the voice of reason BV. The crux of the argument in all this and the 'bee in the bonnet' that the Badman has is that he thinks (read that as Knows) that certain drafted players will never be able to make the move from flanker to onballer.

Being an onballer is about alot of things but primarily it is being able to win the ball and execute under pressure. To some this comes naturally and to some it takes time. For some coming out of the junior ranks they have never been given the opportunity to preform in the role. They have been pigeon holed even at a young age.

A classic example is lad like Mat Buntine who was taken by GWS. I think the kid will be a star who will play 200+ games. He has always been the quarter back at the Stingrays because he reads it so well. He has Scarlett like awareness and the Coach was loath to move him out of defense. I watched him in a game late last year and he asked the Coach if he could have a run on the ball in the 2nd half. He had about 20 contested poss in 2 quarters and dominated.

My point being that a good footballer who has all the necessary basic skills and smarts can be upskilled to play many roles.

A simple analogy ..............Sometimes the apparent perfect 'Round' peg is not suitable to fit in a round hole. The Round peg might be warped or twisted slightly. Instead you might have to get the perfectly straight square peg and do some remodeling to make it fit.

It is all in the remodeling, development and education.

Just because a lad plays as an onballer in the U18 comp it doesn't mean he will do it at AFL level. Just because he played at FF in the U18's doesn't mean he can't play elsewhere. Kane Lucas played primarily as an onballer in U18 footy and is just now getting the right body to go back in there again this year. Simmo never moved off the Wing as boy but he is always in the rotations now to give someone a spell.

Look back through the Premiership teams of the past 6 years and tell me how many 'genuine' onballers each team had. I haven't done the research but I would guess most had 4 or 5 at the most. The rest were floaters who came in and out of the rotation for a few minutes at a time.

Stacking a team with 15 onballers is not what it is all about. As BV says it is about versatility and getting the right mix of players who are all capable of playing a high level of contested, competitive footy over an entire season. We aren't there yet but we are getting closer.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

According to Paul Roos, indigenous players don't have the tank...

The ability to minimize the reduction in effective impact when your elites per position are off the field seems to be paramount these days.

If you draft a zillion midfielders, your effectiveness in midfield might only drop from 95% to 85% when the elites are resting/not playing, but if those mids are not adaptable to being flankers and pockets, particularly in the defensive end of the ground, your defensive impact may drop from 90% with elites to 60%...

Heath Scotland is an interesting Case Study of the reverse. Traded in as primarily a midfielder from the Wobbles, has played his best football coming off half back. Can still pinch into the midfield and minimize reduction in effectiveness.

It's the same with KPPs... look at the Hendersons, the Thorntons, even the Jamisons. Henderson and Thornton's ability to swing was integral to the structure, and greatly minimized the decrease in impact when other players were down/missing. Jamison not as efficient (but he was carrying an injury).

I would be interested to know how many clubs use an alleged pure 'onballer' as their 'substitute', compared to a versatile utility type. If having more onballers in a team is the 'be all to end all' to winning the game, wouldn't it make sense that every substitute be an onballer.

Just a thought

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

If some flankers and are on-ballers, and some on-ballers are guns, but all on-ballers are rotational flankers, then how many flankers are guns?


Where does Scotland line up? Who is his regular opponent in games?

He's not a HBFer and hasn't been since the Pagan days; he drops back for the chop out and closes down play really well, but he's a midfielder.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Of all the hbfers we have drafted how many have become good midfielders after hanging out at the club for a while????

Its unfair we have so many hbfers rotting away in the reserves when they could be playing somewhere else....(lack of opportunity)

As for me not being paid to make big calls.. ... our call making hasnt delivered in a flag in 18 years??

becoming very Richmond around here.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

If that's the best you've got I think you need a power nap to freshen up for next Sunday.

Regards Cazzesman

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Gibbs, touhy, Russell, yarran, Scotland all good hbfs who will get a run in the midfield this year