We know prior to this year our mids failed defensively. That has been the one huge improvement I noticed in praccy games, and said so, and the first 3 rounds.

Stoppages is still the issue though


What are they saying about the defense now?

We've had 13, 12 & 12 goals kicked against us.

Do we need to improve that side of the game? Is it fixable?

I'm sure the elephant in the room is our Forward 50 entry. Not the number of opportunities we create, because that's good, but questions on our method.

I'm sure its fixable. Is that what Bartel and Lloyd are saying?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

They’re saying they’re unsure - like most of us here who don’t mindlessly blather, “in Voss we trust” - what our coaches are instructing our players.


Giving Voss another year with a different list as per your last post to mick us absolutely insane and will be the end of this club. The average painted on fan for the last 1-2-3-4-5-6 decades doesn’t share the (blind?) optimism that in Voss we trust. That fan is actually more closer to walking away from the Blues (or footy all together) than they are ready to give Voss and this incompetent administration another season of futility where our “generational” core amounted to a prelim final in 2023

We need rapid change. Culturally, administratively, tactically and strategically on the field and we need to overturn a half dozen or more of our list into dynamic players who are fast and skilled. But if it was that easy, everyone would be more hawthorn and less north Melbourne.

Make no mistake. Voss is sending us below north Melbourne. Something has to be figured out, standing pat isn’t an option imo

I'd still like to know who has final say on players?

In Voss we Trust...its just saying to reflect the moment of time we are in braithy.

What option do you or I have? Really?

Like you said Lloydy and Bartel are unsure if its fixable, and you agree with them? Well that says everyone is unsure. That's what makes it exciting. We don'tt know the end of the story.

It implies, there will be no change in coach, that we KNOW of, and the future of our year is in Vossy's hands...not mine, not yours, not Longmires.

I'm a glass half full. Am I blind? Should I act like you or my nephew.

My nephew is so frustrated with Carlton and my calmness on the situation. He wants me to feel his pain, and suffer. I'm sure he'd love to punch me with his fist, like you do with your words, but he knows better than that. He knows it would be his last punch if he did, nephew or no nephew.

Relax mate......lets just see where this 2025 journey takes us. We have no alternative, so why stress?

As for fans walking away from their clubs. Like I said to my kids, that's OK with me. I know as soon as the tide changes, like it did in 2022-23, the lost Carlton children came out of the woodwork and I couldnt enjoy the reserve seats I did when they weren't around. Carlton will survive, and will win a flag sooner than later, with or without Vossy.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I go more on vibes than stats, but I did read an intresting stat today: We're second in the league for winning stoppages and second in the league for retaining the ball in our attacking 50.

Obviously the two are related. Our method going forward is, if all else fails, bomb it long to the talls, set up a stoppage and then win the ball back from that stoppage. It's tiring work, but we're pretty good at it. The problem is that we win the ball at stoppage but we don't have anyone who is able to take a half-chance out of the contest and score a goal. So we win stoppage, and then we're faced with another stoppage. And on and on. Eventially the opposition can get out of D50 and, oftentimes, we're exposed on the counter. And even if we aren't, squeezing a rushed behind out of four forward-50 stoppages is tiring work and leaves us fatigued late in quarters / games.

It all comes down to not having any natural small forwards.

Motlop has the skills but because he's a bit slow and not especially strong, he never gets the half-second he needs to try and make something out of nothing. Because of this, he looks to hand off the ball a lot, and because he does so under pressure, his disposal is often messy. I still get frustrated about the exchange of handballs betyween he and Hewett at the very top of the goalsquare in the Hawks game - just kick the flower' thing!

Williams does have pace and decent instincts, but isn't a natural forward in that sense.

Durdin has all the attributes, but his natural instincts take him to the wrong spot all the time. He's always trying to win the ball and not recieve the ball i.e. he has a tendency to do daft things like outmark a tall forward instead of staying down for the loose ball.

Fantasia does have natural forward inticts. He hasn't been fit long enough to make much of an impact, and because he's a hard runner and disciplined player, he tends to be deployed further up the field and rarely gets to play as a small forward.

Fogarty works bloody hard and is probably one of the reasons we retain the ball in our D50. But he just doesn't score goals. He avergaes 0.3 goals a game after 73 games - 50 of those with us as (mostly) a forward.

The sample size for Evans is too small, although across his 36 games of AFL he avergaes 0.6 goals a game. Same with White - he's yet to play, so who knows?

In fact, going off vibes, the only two players we have on our list who seem capable of kicking a goal out of nowhere - the instinct to go for goal from an unlikely spot and the skill to pull it off / the ability to take a sliver of space and turn it into something - are Curnow and (incredibly small sample size I acknowledge) Moir.

So with the method we currently use, the smaller forwards I think would work best for us are probably Fantasia (as a stay-at-home small forward not as a high half-forward) & Moir.

I do think that the defensive side of things would suffer, but we'd probably eke out a couple more goals a game. And we've only been losing by a couple of goals a game...

So, to bring this home and link it to the topic of the thread - I think the method we've set up to score is actually okay... except we don't quite have the players to get what we need out of it. We basically need at least one of our small forwards to be excellent, and what we instead have are a series of players who are not quite good enough, or disciplined role-players, or guys who might just as easily be playing in another position (not natural forwards).

So, in a sense, this is on Voss and the coaching staff because they've set up to play a way that we cannot benefit from. We're plugging people into a system and relying on them to make the system work, not assessing what we have a tailoring the system to them.

With that in mind, I've been thinking about how Adelaide go about their business. They happily concede pretty high scores, but rely on outscoring their opposition. It remains to be seen how their method survives an entire season, but three games in they average 21 goals a game (and 10.7 behinds). They concede 12.30 / 9.7 a game.

We average 9.30 goals a game and 12 behinds. We're conceding 12.3 / 7.7

They set up in a weird way - Thilthorpe (201cm), Curtin (197cm), Walker (192cm), Fogarty (192cm), Keays (185cm), Neal-Bullen (182cm), Rachele (180cm) being the 7 players who spend most of their time up forward.

Thilthorpe is the second ruck, Neal-Bullen plays as a high-half forward and a varity of mids spend a small amount of time rotating through the 50 as the game goes on - Peatling starts forward sometimes, Dawson rests forwards sometimes, Rankine starts forward sometimes, etc.

They concede about the same number of points as we do... but score 12 more goals a game on average. Their forward line is built to take advantage of their resources. I'm not saying we have the commensurate resources... their ability to make space for each other in the forward line and hit targets is pretty impressive, but I'm just thinking if there isn't a better way for us to set up, one that actually uses what we have?

Young (202), McKay (200), Curnow (194), Kemp (193), E. Hollands (189), Moir (188), Fantasia (180). I mean... that 7 are actually a little taller...

Could it work for us? If Young played the role of deep forward and second ruck? If Curnow and McKay played the Walker / Fogarty role of the key forwards who work up and back? Kemp playing Curtin's role as a slightly more defensively minded third-tall? Hollands being the high half-forward like Neal-Bullen? Moir being the X-factor like Rachele? Fantasia doing the grunt work of Keays?

I'd honestly rather try that that keep griding away with ther same combination of smalls who work hard and never score...

I think we are in the spot we are in only partially due to coaching but mainly to do with players.

Our strength is our contested game.
Our weakness is speed and skill.

Because we lack speed and skill we have to rely on stoppages and contested football which is very taxing for 3 reasons:
1. Contested football is tough and energy sapping.
2. When we lose the contest we are running hard trying to defend, also energy and morale sapping.
3. Because we lack speed we are playing a majority kicking game and because we lack speed and kicking skills we don’t usually have one out targets and eventually have to kick to packs for a contested clearance. Changing angles could help this but our skill lets us down too much and we go the safe more taxing option, pack and contest.

Essentially we are trying to slow the game down so we can remain competitive.
But where we fall short is disposal efficiency, which is fixed by either getting more skilful players with speed to create space, time and less pressure or the current list gets better at their disposal efficiency.

As you can see by these two images, we are the worst in the league in disposal efficiency and only second worst in kicking efficiency to West Coast.
Note: Blue dot is the average.

They players need to step up and pull their fingers out IMO.

Tough calls at the end of the season and if Austin isn’t up to it, then I hope Wright brings in someone who is.

I don’t think a coaching panel of Clarkson, Hardwick and Mitchell could do much with a team that has as poor disposal efficiency as we do.

Fantastic. ThaNKS FOR SHARING. I think you're onto something and agree.

tHIS MORNING i PUT TOGETHER A SPREADSHEET WITH ALL THE afl SMALL FORWARDS...oops font.....There's one thing that's different between our small forwards and the best small forwards. The best small forwards were always good and taken in the first round.

I was going to start a thread on small forwards to see why we are failing in that area... but here's a snap shot.

Pick and name

3 Rankine ADEL
5 Watson HAW
6 Rachelle ADEL
7 Pickett MELB
11 Greene GWS
12 Cameron BRIS
12 Fletcher BRIS
13 McEntee MELB
15 Weighman WB
13 Kako EFF
17 Murphy Reid
21 Jones GWS
24 Hill COLL Bobby Hill was a steal. Out of contract. Pies didnt have more to offer than future 2nd.

Future First for Lachie Schultz to COLL and Elliot was traded by GWS to Collingwood as a teen. GWS gifted teenage players to use to trade for picks.

Lots of clubs have 4-5 small forwards on their list.

Look at us.

37 Durdin
27 Motlop
30 & 51 Fogarty & pick 38 from Geelong

Williams traded as a mid/ HB from GWS
Cottrell Preseason supp player
Evans a preseason supp
White a(LTI) for Smith

Previous

Betts Rookie
Owies Cat B
Lang pick 58 to Geelong


I think we got spoilt by Betts being picked up in the PSD pick and from there we continued to take for granted the small forward would come cheap.
Admitedly Durdin and Motlop were our first pick in their respective draft.
Durdin had pace to burn but injury prone. Motlop had the pedigree but not that quick.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I'm in your court. Have to think outside of what we have been doing for 3 years with the small forwards. This year we are not seeing a return from them....ditto last year.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Love it sidex. I agree.

Despite the lack of speed which we were addressing with the drafting of Smith, we need more.
This year we are really let down by disposal efficiency. That's the players.

If we can tidy that up, we are a chance this year. That's based on the facts.

As for next year. I haven't heard of targets, but have an inkling there's a plan from the little I've heard re end of the year.

Players for Trade are courted 2 years out.
We have 14 players coming out of contract. That's by design.
Lets say we sign the players we want, including TDK,
That gives us $2M to spend on players we need. $3M if TDK leaves.
They create spots to fill.
We haven't spent all our cap, and had $800K for Houston last year.
We have been banking whatever we didn't spend over 95% cap for 5 years.
The max banked would be $3.7M if we saved 5% over last 5 years. Lets say $2.5M

That's next year.

This year we need to take more care with decision making and disposal.

Fingers crossed Newman returns for his disposal, and Cincotta returns giving us speed and better disposal.

Hollands and Elijah also help with our disposal efficiency.

Great stuff Sidey. Thanks.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I"m with the Champ . Give anything a go except what we have done up till now which doesn't work . Make the most of what you've got . Nice thinking outside the square B Champ .

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All my dangerous friends

I would also think a more interesting point would be disposal efficiency under pressure vs time and space.
I don't believe our guys get much time to dispose as they are in a contested situation half the time and or aren't receiving the right support from teamates, ie. shepherds or blocks.
When the opposition allow us to play our game (less pressure), we seem to execute but when it's the other way around, it's horrible.

Yes , always seems to be some one on there hammer . Don't appear to be out in the open very much .

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All my dangerous friends

Well with that in mind, should we prioritise speed?

Six players had less than 10 disposals on the weekend: Boyd / Motlop / Williams / Curnow / Young / Evans

Williams has an excuse because he was subbed off. Boyd has half an excuse, because he was subbed in, and it was his first game back in the seniors.
Curnow is a key forward, so that explains his low touches, along with it being only his second game back from injury. Young is in the same boat - he played key postion, and their stat counts are usually low. However, he spent enough time in the ruck to get the odd cheap touch, so it's not great for him.

And that leaves Evans and Motlop.

If you include players who had 11 touches, you include Fogarty and McGovern. Neither has much of an excuse for such a low touch count. Fog just doesn't get much of the ball, and McGovern... well...

So, if you accept the premise that a third of your players will probably end up with less than 10 touches due to their role in the side (and, as a note, the Dogs had five players with less than 10 touches), why not pick players with speed? Or skill? Or a delightful combination of both? Don't pick good, honest role-players. Pick players with an exceptional attribute, and accept that they'll get less than 10 touches, but their ten disposals will be good ones. Or that their added pace will help close space against the oppostition and the referred pressure will help the defence? Or, going the other way, that their pace asks questions of the opposition defence and causes gaps to open for the forwards?

Again; why keep going back to the same well?

We ve got to rotate players, now, to make them hungry and intense, to make us better than the status quo. Competition for a spot is a better incentive than having 3 small forwards imo

You've won me.

I don't think the MC will be game to pull too many surprises for the Carlton-Collingwood Blockbuster.

Pace asks questions of the opposition.

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

Absolutely but I also maintain, when we share the ball by hand and run, we look a lot faster.
We just don’t run and carry enough. As an example, Brisbane’s midfield isn’t expressed pace but they do run it well.
Hawthorn as well, use their outside structures well and get the ball out by hand to space.
We have 4 running inside a contest to win it. For mine, that’s coaching!

I read elsewhere that our next CEO in Graham Wright has been in the box for all 3 games this season.

IF true, not sure if I was Voss I would like that too much. Micro management much?

It does not instill much trust or faith in Voss does it???

How about getting a senior assistant coach in with decent strategy., match awareness, game plan ideas/skills to support him instead??

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Cripps is the man

Don’t mind that at all. He’s getting the input he needs. If our coaches are good enough, they should have nothing to fear.

typically teams that win ball ups and contested type plays in their F50 for goals from stoppage have mids who can kick off zero or one step to snag a goal. They might shark it from a ruck tap (ours or theirs) or receive an assist. Cripps is too closely watched and marked most of the time for kicking goals from stoppage but he's more than capable of extracting it and I've seen him dishing it off to Jack Martin, Motllop, Williams, Owies for a goal. And he can do ot with two oppo players hanging off his back/arms/leg.Walsh used to be a 'Robin' to his 'Batman' but that's not working of late. Cerra received from ?Cottrell¿ or someone after a contest/stoppage and goaled from a standing start type kick around his body from ~25m out in round 1 or 2 and it was a joy to behold — a stress free goal taking advance of our contest work!!

I think Cripps and Hewitt are a big part of why we win stoppages but as you say, who are the outlet goal kickers? they should be the small and mid sized HF/HBs like Elijah, Ollie, Williams, Motlop, Fog, Evans, Fantasia (but that is not what we are seeing). Perhaps they are too defensive minded at forward stoppages? I don't claim to know, but you're right , it's a game tactic (and overall strategy) that is not delivering enough to make it worth the effort.

Part of why we get done on transition so much is that our backs push up so high. It's great playing "Territory" footy when it works but it doesn't always work for us and it looks horrible when it doesn't. 50,000+ fans in the crowd just praying that the oppo forward gets a rush of blood and tries to kick the skin off the ball and they miss their kick for goal rather than setting up a lay-down misère from 5 m out for their team mate. I wish we did more of that. the Hollywood Halks excel at that. Speaking of which, Motlop missing a banana with Evans or whomever it was top of the square unmarked was forgivable, but not twice if he pulls that mis-kick with an easy handball goal-assist ignored once again in 2025.

We really are missing Newman. He typically shuts down the most damaging opposition small forward but also is the general organising the back 6 or 7 and keeping them switched on. Weiters does it too but Newman is higher up the ground so more in the thick of it. Saad has had to play the shut down role so we miss getting as much of his run out of defence. Williams was asked to do it against Dogs apparently, and did it really well for that Charlie goal that made Dogs much more Charlie conscious than they might have been.

If kicking is fixable why has it been a persistent issue for five seasons now? some players will never get much better at kicking, not unless it's all they train at, and even then… natural talent and age comes into it.