R19: Carlton v Fremantle (post-match discussion)

london blue · **Joined:** Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:08 pm **Posts:** 3255

SnickerS wrote:

SurreyBlue wrote:

BigBlueWave wrote:

So we never had a good side ... we never had the potential to make a Prelim or Grand Final ... this was a very ordinary group of players. Well ... if thats the case ... you can't have it both ways. We made finals 3 out of 5 years after dwelling for years at the bottom of the ladder. Once we came very very close to making a prelim ... we must have been so well coached to get a team of crap players to perform so well. :smile:

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

Malthouse made a statement at the start of the year of what he thought of the team he inherited ... has everyone forgotten that.

Now we have a crap side with little potential according to some posters.

Players that were in our best last year ... like Laidler and Yarran are suddenly not up to it and there is a reason for that. Murphy can't get his hands on the pill. Carrots is injured ... McLean is old ... Judd has had his day ... Waite is too injury prone etc etc etc. Injuries and poor talent suddenly become an excuse for poor man management ... weak tactical decisions and lack of forsight at the selection table.

We have a better squad than last year with less injuries ... and we probably won't make the 8 unless Essendon**** get the chop.

Completely agree with Robert Walls about our situation ... different rules for different coaches.

Malthouse has made a big fat hash of things this year. Players have not responded to his coaching ... or he just has not got the message through and on top of that the MC have been hopeless and timid. Instead of moving forward ... we are moving backwards ... and a team which had potential has been marked for re-building. We had a chance to swing some changes to a side that had a number of players down ... and what did we do ... lambs to the slaughter ... pathetic.

Very short sighted analysis

Well it is the view of the Ratten faction.......fair enough

Effes · **Posted:** Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:03 pm

london blue wrote:

SnickerS wrote:

SurreyBlue wrote:

BigBlueWave wrote:

So we never had a good side ... we never had the potential to make a Prelim or Grand Final ... this was a very ordinary group of players. Well ... if thats the case ... you can't have it both ways. We made finals 3 out of 5 years after dwelling for years at the bottom of the ladder. Once we came very very close to making a prelim ... we must have been so well coached to get a team of crap players to perform so well. :smile:

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

Malthouse made a statement at the start of the year of what he thought of the team he inherited ... has everyone forgotten that.

Now we have a crap side with little potential according to some posters.

Players that were in our best last year ... like Laidler and Yarran are suddenly not up to it and there is a reason for that. Murphy can't get his hands on the pill. Carrots is injured ... McLean is old ... Judd has had his day ... Waite is too injury prone etc etc etc. Injuries and poor talent suddenly become an excuse for poor man management ... weak tactical decisions and lack of forsight at the selection table.

We have a better squad than last year with less injuries ... and we probably won't make the 8 unless Essendon***** get the chop.

Completely agree with Robert Walls about our situation ... different rules for different coaches.

Malthouse has made a big fat hash of things this year. Players have not responded to his coaching ... or he just has not got the message through and on top of that the MC have been hopeless and timid. Instead of moving forward ... we are moving backwards ... and a team which had potential has been marked for re-building. We had a chance to swing some changes to a side that had a number of players down ... and what did we do ... lambs to the slaughter ... pathetic.

Very short sighted analysis

Well it is the view of the Ratten faction.......fair enough

Not necessarily. There is a non Ratten non MM faction too...those that would like to see proper planning followed, a proper process when hiring the senior coach.

Blue Vain · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:35 am **Posts:** 18022

Effes wrote:

london blue wrote:

SnickerS wrote:

SurreyBlue wrote:

BigBlueWave wrote:

So we never had a good side ... we never had the potential to make a Prelim or Grand Final ... this was a very ordinary group of players. Well ... if thats the case ... you can't have it both ways. We made finals 3 out of 5 years after dwelling for years at the bottom of the ladder. Once we came very very close to making a prelim ... we must have been so well coached to get a team of crap players to perform so well. :smile:

YOU CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

Malthouse made a statement at the start of the year of what he thought of the team he inherited ... has everyone forgotten that.

Now we have a crap side with little potential according to some posters.

Players that were in our best last year ... like Laidler and Yarran are suddenly not up to it and there is a reason for that. Murphy can't get his hands on the pill. Carrots is injured ... McLean is old ... Judd has had his day ... Waite is too injury prone etc etc etc. Injuries and poor talent suddenly become an excuse for poor man management ... weak tactical decisions and lack of forsight at the selection table.

We have a better squad than last year with less injuries ... and we probably won't make the 8 unless Essendon****** get the chop.

Completely agree with Robert Walls about our situation ... different rules for different coaches.

Malthouse has made a big fat hash of things this year. Players have not responded to his coaching ... or he just has not got the message through and on top of that the MC have been hopeless and timid. Instead of moving forward ... we are moving backwards ... and a team which had potential has been marked for re-building. We had a chance to swing some changes to a side that had a number of players down ... and what did we do ... lambs to the slaughter ... pathetic.

Very short sighted analysis

Well it is the view of the Ratten faction.......fair enough

Not necessarily. There is a non Ratten non MM faction too...those that would like to see proper planning followed, a proper process when hiring the senior coach.

Yes, there is, but its easier to be dismissive by calling those who wanted a proper selection process the "Ratten faction". Its no different to years ago when I was a "Pagan hater" for questioning the appointment of Pagan. :lol:

Apparently you have to be all in or all out.
Simplistic nonsense.

kingkerna · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:03 am

yep, certainly not a 'ratten faction' member, long term view was that had he have served this year he would have done his time and gone. Then we could have gone through a proper process. Afterall, surely the results would have been similar and this supposed required cull would still have gone ahead?

kingkerna · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:13 am

yep, certainly not a 'ratten faction' member, long term view was that had he have served this year he would have done his time and gone. Then we could have gone through a proper process. Afterall, surely the results would have been similar and this supposed required cull would still have gone ahead?

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

kingkerna wrote:

yep, certainly not a 'ratten faction' member, long term view was that had he have served this year he would have done his time and gone. Then we could have gone through a proper process. Afterall, surely the results would have been similar and this supposed required cull would still have gone ahead?

Agree. I wasn't a Ratts fan, he was appointed without anything like a reasonable process that considered all possible candidates....just like MM. But we couldn't possibly be any worse off if he had coached this season, and at season's end we could have looked seriously for a coach, not had to pay $1m to get rid of contracted coaches and not had the embarrassment of being so desperate that MM interviewed us to see if we were suitable, and then thumbed his nose at us by turning up to work in about November - now that's commitment. I actively dislike MM, while conceding he is a good coach (but there are others better) and he'd need to be doing a lot right for me to tolerate him, and here we are a genuine 12th to 9th side and likely to get worse before we get better. Who actually has improved under him? I know a lot of guys have gone backwards. The only improvers are guys like Tuohy and Hendo who were on the improvement curve anyway, and were improving under Ratts. Meanwhile every player at Freeo improved under Lyon, every player at Port has improved under Hinkley. Get a young long term coach who is very good - they are out there it's just that we couldn't be bothered looking; draft really well (we haven't) - and create a dynasty. Unfortunately we will continue to make poor short term decisions and continue to be mediocre. If only there was someone who was not an unelected Pratt or a mate, who could get control of the committee, get rid of Swan and start making some good strategic long term decisions. Other clubs can do this, why not us.

BigBlueWave · **Joined:** Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:45 pm **Posts:** 3073

gerry atric wrote:

kingkerna wrote:

yep, certainly not a 'ratten faction' member, long term view was that had he have served this year he would have done his time and gone. Then we could have gone through a proper process. Afterall, surely the results would have been similar and this supposed required cull would still have gone ahead?

Agree. I wasn't a Ratts fan, he was appointed without anything like a reasonable process that considered all possible candidates....just like MM. But we couldn't possibly be any worse off if he had coached this season, and at season's end we could have looked seriously for a coach, not had to pay $1m to get rid of contracted coaches and not had the embarrassment of being so desperate that MM interviewed us to see if we were suitable, and then thumbed his nose at us by turning up to work in about November - now that's commitment. I actively dislike MM, while conceding he is a good coach (but there are others better) and he'd need to be doing a lot right for me to tolerate him, and here we are a genuine 12th to 9th side and likely to get worse before we get better. Who actually has improved under him? I know a lot of guys have gone backwards. The only improvers are guys like Tuohy and Hendo who were on the improvement curve anyway, and were improving under Ratts. Meanwhile every player at Freeo improved under Lyon, every player at Port has improved under Hinkley. Get a young long term coach who is very good - they are out there it's just that we couldn't be bothered looking; draft really well (we haven't) - and create a dynasty. Unfortunately we will continue to make poor short term decisions and continue to be mediocre. If only there was someone who was not an unelected Pratt or a mate, who could get control of the committee, get rid of Swan and start making some good strategic long term decisions. Other clubs can do this, why not us.

Agree with most of what you have said. Its becoming pretty clear the appointment of Malthouse was not only a mistake but a farce.

buzzaaaah · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:31 am **Posts:** 17893

I think fundamentally winning isn't the be-all and end-all for many of our players.
Sure everyone enjoys winning but it isn't the thing that drives them every second of every day.

I remember one night after we beet Geelong on a friday night 2009???, I heard Harley interviewed the next day and he said he recieved a text from Mackie at 2am saying "Can't sleep. losing sucks"

Our players would be tweeting "Check out the new shoes Thanks @Nike"

Wojee · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:17 am **Posts:** 35135

buzzaaaah wrote:

I think fundamentally winning isn't the be-all and end-all for many of our players.
Sure everyone enjoys winning but it isn't the thing that drives them every second of every day.

I remember one night after we beet Geelong on a friday night 2009???, I heard Harley interviewed the next day and he said he recieved a text from Mackie at 2am saying "Can't sleep. losing sucks"

Our players would be tweeting "Check out the new shoes Thanks @Nike"

I have to agree with this, I think Carlton losing hurts me more than it hurts the players and I'm just a bloke who gets to one, maybe two games a year.

buzzaaaah · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:31 am **Posts:** 17893

I saw Sticks after the Saints loss early in the year and the 2 of us were gutted. I spoke to him for 15min and we were wallowing the whole time.
I saw a player on the Sat that week and asked him what happened because it was a devastating loss. The attitude was "let's move on, we can't focus on stuff like that"

Our team culture is garbage, worse than any skills shortfall.

camel · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:50 pm

Haven't been able to stomach reading this thread. But after witnessing my second loss in person for the year (first was R1) I saw some exciting things, but overall I saw our blokes not willing (or able) to run hard enough and create without the ball as our opponents.

Too often they would have players running from half-back into F50 to provide options whether they got used or not. Too often our guys would get the ball around half-forward, or within scoring distance and even though we had an open fwd line and unmarked players running forward they would just stop, so we had no option but to take a shot or kick into a forward line that had since become crowded.

It's not like it was an important game or anything.

I was too far away from the Ballantyne kerfuffle to see what really happened, but gee, what a surprise that Carlton got sucked in by this clown. They must run a nearest the pin comp to see when Ballantyne will get his forst goal scoring chance form sucking in one of our players.

We're so mentally weak. Still. How many more years will it take to rid ourselves of that trait?

camel · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:05 pm

[youtube]6jS3S2s5jlY[/youtube]

Go to 3:57 in...

Q: The coach was critical of the midfield on the weekend what do you think main issue was?
A: Well I played in the backline on the weekend, so I wasn't around too many stoppages... Um, I'm not sure...

Sounds a bit like feathering your own nest and not embracing a team collective to me.

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

camelboy wrote:

I was too far away from the Ballantyne kerfuffle to see what really happened, but gee, what a surprise that Carlton got sucked in by this clown.

Very hateable opponent Ballantyne, but wouldn't you love any Carlton player to have that edge of nastiness, that endeavour, that will ....imagine if Yarran or Gibbs played with the effort and mongrel of Ballantyne, they'd be a world beaters. But alas they are just elite talents without the added desperate hardness that wins tough games and flags. Seeing how Danyle Pearce goes about it at Freeo (he seemed flaky and soft at Port), it would be very interesting to see if Lyon was capable of unlocking the required desperation in Gibbs and Yarran.....

Bluey44 · **Posted:** Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:52 pm

Gibbs is a tricky one.
Do you let him focus on the style of play he feels familiar with, and get a good solid contribution - ala his performance on Mayne....
Or do you take him away from his comfort zone and force him to try to learn to be a dynamic, attacking midfielder?
He's done it in patches, had one or two games where the commentators gushed that 'he' s arrived! ', but hasn't been able to cement it.

I got the feeling that ratts wasn't willing to push Gibbs. He always hinted that he had no choice bbut to play him back, but I think maybe he just didn't want to have to put the acid on Gibbs.
It might backfire, but I think Mick needs to have a crack at it.

Who knows, maybe Gibbs has a lot of untapped leadership potential?

I think Murphy needs some special coaching assistance.
Yes he needs more of a chop out too, but maybe he needs some fresh ideas/tricks.
Someone mentioned Crawf as an option.... Might be worth a go.

As for Mick,
I'm slightly disappointed with his impact,

But I'm not going to sit here for another two and a half years moaning and groaning about it.
Add a few new assistants at the end of the year, and a decent trade / drafting period, we could be sitting pretty :-)

R19: Carlton v Fremantle (post-match discussion)

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