History is how people understand where they have been so they know the best way to go forward. But hey, that's just facts, we can always base everything we do in the future on pure guess work.

This is why I hate the situation the club is still in. 8 Rounds in and the season is "gone" and all there is, is to discuss tanking for picks and who the new coach should be.... bloody depressing...and I'm sick of it.

Personally I find the off season very long, and then having to discuss the PP after only 7/8 rounds.... makes you want to give footy away sometimes and take up lawn bowles (no not really )

My major concern with all of this is the fact that the decent young blokes we have may simply get jack of losing and up and leave. Surely Thornton's and Russell's gripes would not have surfaced had we been playing finals.

What's to say the likes of Murphy, Gibb's et al just get sick of a losing club culture and want finals footy.

Some of our blokes would be creaming the competition in a more vibrant winning club culture with extra protection and better skills. We must be wary of this.

Muzza

Muzza - Richard Pratt will ensure that no-one leaves our club.

One more year of pain for 10 years of gain is all i'm asking for!!!

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Walk on, Walk on,
With hope, in your heart,
And you'll never walk alone,
YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE!!!

08/02/1981 - GATE 7...Our brothers will never be forgotten!!!

Are you talking about this year or next year Jarvis? Cos if you are talking about this year why don't we tank next year as well, you know, just to be sure that we are going to be succesful - if we have have won the first few game this year would you be saying this? Or is it just convenient for you now?

But I am sure that the extra first round pick will make all the difference

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

But you see GAV, winning, united, club cultures create harmony and an enjoyable environment in which to exist and play footy. Throwing dollars at them helps a little but in reality the majority of players are there to enjoy what they do as well as be paid.

While I can see your point about Pratt, I wonder if that is sending the wrong message. Change the club culture and then players will want to come to us.

Not happening at the moment

But we were sitting at 2 and 2 after 4 rounds and still in a reasonable position.

This argument that First Round Draft Picks wont help us - because Sydney, West Coas and Port Adelaide dont have any and they have won flags in the past 3 years beggars belief.

These 3 clubs also have well resourced football departments with all the facilities, they have double the amount of personel to provide young players with support, advice, tutelage in the intracies of the game - coaches that understand the modern game .

We are starting from well behind the eightball - we have only THIS year started to start catching up in this regard - the benefits of a decent football department, with decent facilities wont start kicking in for a few years.

What we need right away is quality players and fast - I'm sorry but the lucky dip that is the National Draft is just that a lucky dip - but the simple facts of the matter is that over the past few years First Rounders are self evident and are less of a lucky dip than they were before, if there is a chance of 2 First Rounders this year then the answer is very clear.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

didn't say first round picks don't help. first round picks are cream at the top so the more you have the better. i'm just saying that the number 1 pick is not worth getting flustered about. to be honest, if we had picks 1 and 3, i'd happily trade pick 1 away for picks 4 and 7. completely hypothetical, but what would be better. pick 1 and 3 or picks 3, 4 and 7? if it happens well and good, but i just don't want to go through the whole year worrying that if we have a couple of wins we are going to lose pick 1.

and one other thing, there is no such thing as a meaningless win. winning means everything. did anyone notice the herald sun today with fev kouta and walker posing for a photo with lee kernaghan. that was after the game saturday night. AFTER losing a winnable game!!! and they're all smiles. losses don't @#$%&! hurt our blokes any more. losses have become acceptable. it's not @#$%&! good enough so don't anyone try to say that what does it matter if we miss out on a few meaningless wins.

i want a loss to taste like shit to these guys. i want a loss to grind in their guts. i want them to feel pain about losing. i want them to hate losing so @#$%&! much that they will do anything to avois the feeling. i want these boys to want to win at all costs because losing is just plain shit.

12 losses to go

Another thing to remember is that Richmond could end up with the wooden spoon and we end up with the first pick. The AFL changed the system which disadvantaged us last year, but it could well be to our advantage this year.

Talk about rubbing salt into the wound (both to Richmond and the AFL)

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You can just smell that fresh Carlton arrogance coming back into the air

How is Pratt going to make sure no one leaves? Is he going to use his Jedi mind tricks on the players? There's a thing called the salary cap whick stops Pratt paying a player over his market value. So at the end of the day it will come down to whether the player believes in the club. And who would want to play for a losing club with supporters that actually want them to lose. Last year it wasn't about the money for Thornton and Russell, they were offered the same by the blues, but they still wanted to go.

I'll take the PP if it comes our way becaues we aren't good enough. But wishing, hoping, asking for it this early in the season is pathetic. If we have 3 wins at round 18, fine play only kids and take the last 2-3 losses.

But let's be careful what we wish for because I could think of nothing worse than losing the next 5 games and then winning 3 out of the last 9 and come second last with 5 wins. I would rather win 5-7 of the next 14 and finish 12th-14th. Those wins will be much more valuable to the kids, supporters and the club than 5 wins and a pick two or three spots higher.

Agree Nytdog no point running through and chasing draft picks when at the end of the year other young potential Kids decide they want out not because of the money but purely they just are not happy or sick of given limited roles.

But problem is Nytdog if Pagan remains to the end of season 2007 we will possibly win 3-5 games total with a battered morale and possibly with several young uncontracted players wanting out.

Change our coach or even put in Ratts as care taker give him a role for 2007 to give the kids chosen to play with responsibility and a proper roles.

Allow then to take risks and if we win 4 games but are enjoying there footy they will stay for the new changes that will come from a new coaching panel. if we win 7-8 Games and the Kids improve and see the team going in the right direction they will also be happy to stay.

But if they are still under Pagan and given limited roles and play more on the bench than on the field see players who maybe dont deserve to be playing on form played in front of them or played in roles that they where never even picked for IE Back pocket or purely tagging they will prob have no problems maybe seeking other options.

So far there looks to be several players feeling a little unhappy with the Coaching panel and club Edwards / AW possibly Kennedy even Murph with his old man storming into the coaching box becasue we cant even give him proper protection.

We need change in the coaching and this must be done no later than the mid season break.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

No arguments from me. I have no problem changing the coach. In fact I am REALLY looking forward to it. I can't wait to see how many respected football people apply for the job. It will give us an indication of how many outsiders see our potential and our future.

But this is a tanking thread and until the last few rounds of the year, I'm not the type to even contemplate it.

I am not advocating for the Tank but prefer to see the coach changed.

This will give us a much great idea of what our current young list are potentialy capable when given proper roles and responsibility. Something which is sadly packing from DP at present.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

It's the type of logic that will stop us PERHAPS developing a great team and then having to break it up before it has a chance to do anything.
Watch what happens to the Eagles. They were 'lucky' to get a great team without a lot of high draft picks due in part to their ability to hide players in local leagues. Those players will want salaries commensurate with their ability and success when their contracts come around. Collingwood will offer Judd $1.5 mil (or we will) and if he is vaguely interested in going, the Eagles wil have to offer him something akin. Then they will have to sell off some other players to stay under the cap. That's why it's there.
Brisbane had the so-called 'go home' bonus in addition to their normal salary cap, which was the only reason they could keep Aker, Black and co all at the same time. They were happy to be rid of Aker in part for his attitude but also they had a decrease in their salary cap to cope with so they killed two birds with one stone.
Sydney has a 'it is so expensive to live in Sydney' bonus. They don't spread it around, they use it to keep Hall, Kirk, Goodes etc and buy Everitt. They couldn't do that on a normal cap IMO.
St Kilda is a team who have a lot of high draft picks but apart from Riewoldt (I can never spell his name) the others haven't set the world on fire so they are not under the pressure they might be. They are also an example of a team that proves you need more than high picks to win flags. Had Koz and Goddard fired early, they would be in deepsh.
And Richmond I will just ignore. They have a losing mentality through the entire club from the top down.
We tried to prevent the inevitable in the late 90s and early 00s and had to cheat the salary cap to do it. We aren't ever going down that path again.
I think we already have the basic list we need. Add a #5 to it and an experienced midfielder and I don't think we need to look for a #1 and a #3 this year. I think it may cause us grief later on.
Having said that, if we were to get those picks this year we could use them as bait to try for a trade for Judd or someone else. Assuming we can afford the price, that is. You can bet your life the bean counters at the club are already in overdrive.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

We can still win a few, Mikkey. The problem isn't so much the players as where they are playing and the 'Kick it long to Fev one-dimensional gameplan. I am personally looking forward to when we realize we are good enough. When they know how to win, they will start winning and THAT for the poster who asked what a winning culture is, is a winning culture.
If you think the off season is long for you, try living outside the country with no cricket to fill in the time!

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

We just point them at poor old Nathan Buckley who left the Lions for that exact reason and could have had at least three flags to his name had he stayed. Maybe more.
Don't you feel sorry for him?
Nah

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Where has this been reported? First I have heard of it

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

It is a rumour that has been spread - the story was actually that Marc's dad stormed into the rooms after the game. Some posters (either here or on CSC) who were in the rooms after the game have said that it is BS. Very much like the Bannister's dad story.
One unfortunate side of the net is that anybody can spread false rumours and some people will believe it. E.g. one poster on CSC claims he spoke to Sticks after the North game and he confirmed that Pagan wa sgone and who would replace him... as if.... and guess, some of the posters over there took it as gospel...

Well said guys.