Wallace's clock is genius.

I can't see it happening before 2011. Sydney this year, West Coast 2008/9 and Fremantle 2010. By then Port and Brisbane should of rebuilt and be challenging.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

I struggle to see how we have anyone questioning the Hawthorn approach. They've set themselves up to become a powerhouse club in the next five years. If we have the same opportunity then it will have come about through sheer dumb luck.

We should have realised we were going to plumb the depths and just accepted it. Trading Lance and Lappin would have given us a real shot in the arm. Plus Campo should have gone a season or two before when he had some currency. Instead, we let these guys move towards retirement at the pace of an iceberg, collecting handfuls of cash that we don't have.

Hawthorn offloads the icebergs for draft picks, we sit back and make a mad dash to sign those we don't really need. Same will happen with Scotland this year. Will we get any better from him than we did this year? Of course not. So we should be saying, second round draft pick please. But instead he'll become a fat cat - hanging around half-back for years and taking a wad of cash while he does it. No one will be interested in him after this year, and so the window of opportunity slides by again...

In five years most of you will wish we had have done it like Hawthorn...

I think the biggest problem with Hawthorn, as has been mentioned, is their coach.

You can see Adelaide dropping because they are old, but how will Hawthorn overtake Richmond?

On sheer ability alone only, as you can't see Clarkson outcoaching Wallace. Then they have to overtake StKilda, who if they get a coach even half as good as Thomas they will be a powerhouse.

And West Coast?

With their midfiled, they should be a top four side for many years to come. Can you see Sydney falling away? Hawthorn may be able to pass Melbourne and Geelong on ability, but who knows who will be coaching those two in a couple of years, and Geelong are getting Hawkings.

They will be spending time with Collingwood in a couple of years, who have proven that off-field success has little bearing on premierships.

They one thing I think we could've done better is traded Whitnall away to Brisbane a couple of years ago, and then got him back again.

Good post Molly. I like your posts.

You're the second person, along with Dr Sherrin, who i've seen raise the possibility of trading Scotland whilst he's at his peak.

I don't suppose that there is much more to add to that argument. I guess that we have to take into consideration that this is *supposedly* the strongest draft ever, and bite the bullet and get as many picks as humanly possible.

Two points though.

1. I can't see Pagan doing it. Losing Scotland would probably go a long way towards ensuring that we finish near the bottom in 2007. If that happens Pagan loses his job, if not during the season then surely after it.

2. It would take balls to arrange and then go through with a Scotland trade. There is an element of risk involved -- his stats this year are pretty convincing. He had a ripper year. Can the board see past this with a view towards the future? Doubt it.

So, whilst I guess it is certainly an attractive proposition -- I wouldn't hold my breath.

Why are you guys saying Clarkson is not a good coach? Just because he was a thug against us???? I got news for you - so were Sheedy, Matthews, and Malthouse (who on last count had 10 coaching premierships among them).

"Clarkson is a dud" is wishful thinking from some of you. It reminds me of the "Choco is a dud" views from a few years ago. But these "duds" create a plan, get the people around them to execute it, stick to their guns, and eventually succeed.

Give me Clarkson or Choco any day. You may not like them, but.... so what!!!

I've heard some things about Clarkson's coaching, from an unique perspective. Very good at tactics, but very set in his ways.

Thanks Titimus,

and I agree... of course we won't trade Scotland. And I guess that is my point. Hawthorn see guys like Hay, and Thompson and they say to themsleves, 'well we've got the best out of them, lets trade them before anyone else figures it out', but we go 'oh we don't have many top-shelf players, best to hang onto the half-decent ones we've got'.

I think we will accidentally end up becoming a good team because the nature of the draft suggests we will. But what Hawthorn have done is to realise that you take advantage of the system while you are down the bottom. They know that to maximise their chance for a premiership they need a critical mass of high draft picks so that they can have a group of elite players coming through the system together.

At this stage, when Hawthorn are challenging for the flag they will have a higher mass of top draft picks than we will do. We can of course bridge the gap. We need to hold onto all our draft picks this season (incl. the extra PP if we get it - and I imagine we won't have it, but I guess while there's life there is hope) and also try and trade for at least one extra pick in the top two rounds. I think Scotland is the most likely avenue for doing that, but I don't imagine for one minute that we would actually do it. If we could get a first rounder then that would be a real bonus. Problem is that I don't think we can get one unless we trade Stevens, and he would actually be the one bloke in the older age group I'd be sure to hang onto.

Anyone who thinks we can get a first rounder for Lance this year is dreaming. Melbourne would have given us their's last year - and they used it on Nathan Jones. I can tell you right now that I'd rather have young Jones on my list next year than Lance, but the wheel kept on turning.

So, in 2010 or 2011 when Hawthorn and Carlton are both close to making a challenge you'll be able to look at this lists. Write down the names of the blokes Hawthorn got from the Hay and Thompson trades and see how much they add to their team. Then have a look and see if our list falls off after our high draft choices (Walker, Murphy, Kennedy, etc). If the list does fall off, then its down to our weak trade choices now.

I agree that this is the year where we would get the most return for trading Scotland but my concern is what it says to others in the football community. Scotland is pretty much the only player with value that we have successfully poached from another side during trade week. If we are to trade him after his best season it may benefit us for that one trade, but it may make other players reluctant to consider being traded to Carlton if they are going to be on traded once they perform to an appropraite standard.

Players need to choose our club because they like the culture ... not because it is a last resort for their career. Scotland is the only player recently who has put his faith in us when realistically his career was not in terminal need of a lifeline...surely we have to repay the faith.

I think we need to keep him to show that we can have success with players we 'invite' over from other clubs ... otherwise we are relying on players to have a good memory to remember back to our last successful trade ... matty lappin.

Why so much love for Hawthorn? Remember we are Carlton - F### the rest. Easy to real of a list of names. Shit I can do that with our young players and they may just may stack up against some of the love me do squad.

Synbad at no stage did I fault them. Why don't you just sit back and continue with your applause of the mighty high flying hawks while they try to pinch one of our better young players. Me i have fire flowing through my nostrils. Once again I hate them!

Good post Showbag,

but if we can use a player like Scotland to build that critical mass of high draft picks then players will want to come to us in a few years. They'll want to be playing with Murphy and Walker and Kennedy and Bower and Gibbs or whoever we get this year.

Trading Scotland says that we are about doing all in our power to build a culture of success in the medium to long term. What players from other clubs shouldn't like about our culture right now is that we are prepared to hang onto players well past their prime for a fistful of cash. Why is Gardiner keen to come to us? Stuffed knees, bad attitude - these are the things we reward. A Footy brain, that is another thing we reward. Dean Solomon should be banging hard on our door about now.

Until we make a statement that we embrace the draft and are in the game of success for the medium to long term then nobody is going to want us. Except for the blokes with the shot knees, and the footy smarts, etc. They are the ones lining up to play with us. Doesn't seem there are too many others in the queue.

Trading Scotland would actually send out the right messages. 'Come to Carlton - we are in this for the long haul, we aren't a retirement home'.

You know we will get pick 1 & 2 next year if we lose enough games? That's the proper way to embrace the draft. Lose! Lose!

Deep down Rod, you hate them because you respect them.

I don't give a flying hoot about St Kilda because I don't respect them. I hate Collingwood and Hawthorn and Essendon* and Richmond because I respect them, their history and in their case an attempt to turn their fortunes around.

Hawthorn were great - no doubt about it - but they were crap but with an adventurous style of administration, a bold approach to the draft, they are now far better placed than we are. Are the people who want more draft picks the same people who want us to rebuild quickly and use Hawthorn as an example of doing things slowly? Well, I'm sorry to say there's easy fixes.

Hawthorn seem to be financially better off than us, partly because they had less debt, also they know how to sell a message better than us. They sell the fact that they have developing kids and a young coach who has faith in his kids.

Contrast this to the crap we get from Denis.

No wonder the media would rather bash us than support us.

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

Didn't one of the TC posters on Friday say that he would know more about T-Bird from the weekend.

Any answers on WTF is going on?

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Thornton, reminds me of angry Phillip Pinnell, (70s carlton half back flanker) always looking over his shoulder & trying to blame someone else for getting beaten at a contest.I say if the deal is right , lets get a quality draft pick for him..

Theyr organised and theyre making things happen for themselves. in the mean time.. were same old same old..

We might need a club like Hawthorn to show us whats possible.

If we lose our players its not Hawthorns fault.. its the fault of our super conservative.. bet each way... steady as she goes.. dont do anything in case its a mistake approach...

Not Hawthorns fault.

You can see the road Hawthorn were taking a couple of years ago.. we chose to go the tip toe through the tulips approach...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

yeah i absolutely agree..he always seems to blame others for his own lack of pace and skill..i say Thornton and pick 35 for pick 6

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Succumb to your highest emotion!!!!

You people who want Thornton traded because he's not that good all of a sudden want pick 6 for the guy...you can't have it both ways...

Either he's good enough to be worth pick 6, in which case, why would you trade the guy?

or he's not good enough for you, in which case he'd be worth a lot less.

Make up your minds

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"A good composer does not initiate. He steals."

- Igor Stravinsky

oh ok.....ummmmm...lets say he's good and i'll have pick 6

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Succumb to your highest emotion!!!!

They got luck in trading most clubs would never have. They unbelieveably got a 1 & 2 round picks for Jon Hay (I think that was right), and a 1 & 2 round picks for Nathan Thompson, a gun, who was leaving anyway. There's no way they would've traded him if he wanted to stay. It would've a taken a great draft pick to be actually better given his seaosn this year. All that on top of their PP picks as well. They also have a decent group of senior players to lead the youngsters through, also extremely important in regards to their development.