R11: Carlton v Geelong (Post-match discussion)

camel · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:17 pm

Stefchook wrote:

I don't mind Gibbs playing half back if he's getting free or playing as the loose man and rebounding. But if we're developing him to play as a shut down defender for the next 7-8 years, then we're wasting one of our genuinely elite decision makers and ball users. We're going to lose the next 3 games, and limp into 9th by the end of the season. I want us to make longer term decisions about what roles we are going to develop players in.

Gibbs is a true utility player. He can do well in a number of roles. While I agree that we don't want to see him play in a negative defensive role all the time, he has a good track record at stifling the influence of big name players (eg. Goodes and now Johnson).

Makes sense to me if we can use Gibbs shut down players of that ilk.

Against the Eagles, I'd expect Gibbs to play a more creative and attacking role from HB.

Big Kahuna Boot · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:32 pm

..Gibbs doesn't have a 'list of scalps'.. ..he's got a few is all, and the Goodes one was obviously more about Goodes hobbling around on one leg.. ..he wasn't close to being fit for that match.. ..this was clearly shown up in the return bout, when Gibbs was matched on him again, and Goodes took him to the cleaners..

..last season [or two], we played the dee's and won comfortably.. ..Gibbs was matched up all game on Green, and lost badly.. ..Green kicked 5 or so, and pretty much won every contested situation between the two of them..

..Gibbs is a damn good player, he is versatile so he can play well fwd or back of center.. ..he can play middle as well, currently though needs time to regain his center square groove.. ..but this notion that he's an excellent shut-down type of player is hyped up beyond fact in my opinion.. ..because he's a good player he will beat his opponent, but that doesn't mean he's a shutdown type.. ..i reckon he'd beat his opponent across HF too, and NOT as a defensive tag on a rebounder, but as a genuine attacking player..

..SJ didn't have much of an impact as his usual standard, so that was a win.. ..but ultimately of little consequence cos it actually worked more for the cat's benefit than our own.. ..Rusty has had more success of SJ, and provided greater run.. ..i'm not saying he's no good down back, i'm saying he's above avg down there, but could be a lot more fwd of center.. ..it's looking at all his potential, and then saying 80% is ok..

club29 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:10 pm

He has played as well as anyone of Goodes on a number of occasions.

Your mind is playing tricks on you with that Green game. 2010 and green kicked 3 and we smashed them because of their coach being pre occupied by trying to take Gibbs out of play and isolating him. Ratts held his nerve as it was throwing their forward line out of whack and in the end they failed on all their forward entries why we ran off with it at the other end. You need to re watch that game. Gibbs was fine.

Nothing wrong with being a very good defender and i have seen little to think he is anything else. Surprise forward is an option on occasion but HB is home base for the player.

Juanita Jones · **Joined:** Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:30 pm **Posts:** 4180

Caught the back end of a review of Friday night game on SEN. It was quite a scathing critique of Ratts in terms of him being 'happy'/'pleased' with how the team played.

According to SEN he should have been filthy in his press conference.

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:15 pm

Big Kahuna Boot wrote:

..Gibbs doesn't have a 'list of scalps'.. ..he's got a few is all, and the Goodes one was obviously more about Goodes hobbling around on one leg.. ..he wasn't close to being fit for that match.. ..this was clearly shown up in the return bout, when Gibbs was matched on him again, and Goodes took him to the cleaners..

..last season [or two], we played the dee's and won comfortably.. ..Gibbs was matched up all game on Green, and lost badly.. ..Green kicked 5 or so, and pretty much won every contested situation between the two of them..

..Gibbs is a damn good player, he is versatile so he can play well fwd or back of center.. ..he can play middle as well, currently though needs time to regain his center square groove.. ..but this notion that he's an excellent shut-down type of player is hyped up beyond fact in my opinion.. ..because he's a good player he will beat his opponent, but that doesn't mean he's a shutdown type.. ..i reckon he'd beat his opponent across HF too, and NOT as a defensive tag on a rebounder, but as a genuine attacking player..

..SJ didn't have much of an impact as his usual standard, so that was a win.. ..but ultimately of little consequence cos it actually worked more for the cat's benefit than our own.. ..Rusty has had more success of SJ, and provided greater run.. ..i'm not saying he's no good down back, i'm saying he's above avg down there, but could be a lot more fwd of center.. ..it's looking at all his potential, and then saying 80% is ok..

SJ was a cripple the day JR played on him and should not even played
Gibbs has some big scalps
Pendlebury
Goodes
Scott Thompson
SJ
Q Stick
Martin
Just to name a few

If Bruce Doull was playing nowadays people would be asking why isnt he in the midfield he is wasted

Rexy · **Joined:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:46 am **Posts:** 28227

I can't see the issue with Bryce taking on the oppositions best and beating them

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:37 pm

Rexy wrote:

I can't see the issue with Bryce taking on the oppositions best and beating them

I agree with Rexy

Rexy · **Joined:** Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:46 am **Posts:** 28227

Sydney Blue wrote:

Rexy wrote:

I can't see the issue with Bryce taking on the oppositions best and beating them

I agree with Rexy

naturally

Taff · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:05 pm

Just finished watching the first three quarters and the lack of class is so evident, the boom crash was there unlike last week but the finishing and handling of the ball was poor. Juddy was one of the worst even when clear of an opponent. Just hacking the ball at times. With whom we have on the park at the moment and lack of a decent strong presence up forward we will be lucky to win games. The forward line is a shambles. Not sure I want to watch the last quarter with all those behinds.......

gerry atric · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:35 am **Posts:** 2125

Gibbs did alright, but it indicates how far we have fallen if we are hyping our #1 draft pick for holding SJ to 17 possies. And SJ is such a lair he beats himself sometimes. The issue with Gibbs is that it is disappointing that he is just either a loose man in defense or a tagging half back. The measure of his success is how often oppo coaches are forced to plan around stopping him. How often does he have a defensive half forward on him? Heath Shaw often does, Taigh Keneally did, Jason Gram, Sam Fisher, Scarlett, Hurn, the list goes on. But oppo coaches don't put much effort into stopping Gibbs. We recruited him as a gun mid, but he hasn't been that. He has been good, but if you listed the best 15 medium sized players out of the last 8 drafts, where would Bryce come? Not his fault, the MC just won't develop him as a guy who will win us games, who will rest the initiative, who will cause oppo coaches sleepless nights wondering how to stop him. We have seen J R go from top 3 in the b&f to an ordinary player, Bower has gone backwards, and Gibbs may never get beyond being a neat half back. We need match winners.

Wangers · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:26 pm **Posts:** 1763

^^^^^^
This :clap:

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

blues8182 wrote:

I am not comparing us to Geelong merely using it as an example and it is just one of many over the years, if you like I wil use Carlton of 1980 if it makes you feel better, in 79 we won the flag, missed the finals in 1980 and won back to back 81,82.

Good point. Perce did a great job in 81 and 82. Loved him as a player, but he was even better as a coach. His 3/4 time speech in 81 was amazing apparently.

Sydney Blue · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:50 pm

gerry atric wrote:

Gibbs did alright, but it indicates how far we have fallen if we are hyping our #1 draft pick for holding SJ to 17 possies. And SJ is such a lair he beats himself sometimes. The issue with Gibbs is that it is disappointing that he is just either a loose man in defense or a tagging half back. The measure of his success is how often oppo coaches are forced to plan around stopping him. How often does he have a defensive half forward on him? Heath Shaw often does, Taigh Keneally did, Jason Gram, Sam Fisher, Scarlett, Hurn, the list goes on. But oppo coaches don't put much effort into stopping Gibbs. We recruited him as a gun mid, but he hasn't been that. He has been good, but if you listed the best 15 medium sized players out of the last 8 drafts, where would Bryce come? Not his fault, the MC just won't develop him as a guy who will win us games, who will rest the initiative, who will cause oppo coaches sleepless nights wondering how to stop him. We have seen J R go from top 3 in the b&f to an ordinary player, Bower has gone backwards, and Gibbs may never get beyond being a neat half back. We need match winners.

We have fallen or he has fallen

Maybe Gibbs at 18 and 19 was as good as he was ever going to be he wouldn't be the first kid to dominate at junoirs and fall away in the big time

there is this notion that it is the coaching staff that is holding these blokes back - maybe just maybe it is the players themselves

Stopping opposition gun players is not such a bad thing if a few others could do it we might win a few more games - If the bloke that was on motlop had done the same job as Gibbs did on SJ we might be talking about a win

I just do not understand this obsession with putting Gibbs in the midfield because every time he has been tried in there he has been shite . When jacovich took on Carey was he tagging him
When SOS took him to the cleaners everytime he played him did everyone say get SOS into the midfield he is wasted in there . Seriously who cares if he came to the club as a midfielder he aint one now he is a quality player who can take on the best of the best and beat them . What more could you ask for

Same applies to Bower he hasn't gone backwards he just hasn't got any better there is a difference
You can only be developed if you allow yourself to be and you have to want to

ThePsychologist · **Joined:** Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 am **Posts:** 7893

moshe25 wrote:

blues8182 wrote:

I am not comparing us to Geelong merely using it as an example and it is just one of many over the years, if you like I wil use Carlton of 1980 if it makes you feel better, in 79 we won the flag, missed the finals in 1980 and won back to back 81,82.

Good point. Perce did a great job in 81 and 82. Loved him as a player, but he was even better as a coach. His 3/4 time speech in 81 was amazing apparently.

Also, I think you'll find that we made the finals, finish second after H&A, in 1980 but missed the GF :donk:

spuddie · **Joined:** Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:07 pm **Posts:** 236

moshe25 wrote:

blues8182 wrote:

I am not comparing us to Geelong merely using it as an example and it is just one of many over the years, if you like I wil use Carlton of 1980 if it makes you feel better, in 79 we won the flag, missed the finals in 1980 and won back to back 81,82.

Good point. Perce did a great job in 81 and 82. Loved him as a player, but he was even better as a coach. His 3/4 time speech in 81 was amazing apparently.

Wasnt Parkin the coach in 1981 and 1982?

moshe25 · **Joined:** Wed May 11, 2005 1:23 am **Posts:** 11671

spuddie wrote:

moshe25 wrote:

blues8182 wrote:

I am not comparing us to Geelong merely using it as an example and it is just one of many over the years, if you like I wil use Carlton of 1980 if it makes you feel better, in 79 we won the flag, missed the finals in 1980 and won back to back 81,82.

Good point. Perce did a great job in 81 and 82. Loved him as a player, but he was even better as a coach. His 3/4 time speech in 81 was amazing apparently.

Wasnt Parkin the coach in 1981 and 1982?

Oh. Why'd we get rid of Perce then?

/sarcasm

Stefchook · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:36 am **Posts:** 8163

gerry atric wrote:

Gibbs did alright, but it indicates how far we have fallen if we are hyping our #1 draft pick for holding SJ to 17 possies. And SJ is such a lair he beats himself sometimes. The issue with Gibbs is that it is disappointing that he is just either a loose man in defense or a tagging half back. The measure of his success is how often oppo coaches are forced to plan around stopping him. How often does he have a defensive half forward on him? Heath Shaw often does, Taigh Keneally did, Jason Gram, Sam Fisher, Scarlett, Hurn, the list goes on. But oppo coaches don't put much effort into stopping Gibbs. We recruited him as a gun mid, but he hasn't been that. He has been good, but if you listed the best 15 medium sized players out of the last 8 drafts, where would Bryce come? Not his fault, the MC just won't develop him as a guy who will win us games, who will rest the initiative, who will cause oppo coaches sleepless nights wondering how to stop him. We have seen J R go from top 3 in the b&f to an ordinary player, Bower has gone backwards, and Gibbs may never get beyond being a neat half back. We need match winners.

I agree. I think the MC have confused what's worked for us in the past, and helped us to squeeze out wins, with what's in the best long term interests of the player and the club. Hard to get absolutely elite talent onto your list. I would have thought you'd want to build your club around it over the next decade.

Humpers · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:28 pm **Posts:** 4941

gerry atric wrote:

Gibbs did alright, but it indicates how far we have fallen if we are hyping our #1 draft pick for holding SJ to 17 possies. And SJ is such a lair he beats himself sometimes. The issue with Gibbs is that it is disappointing that he is just either a loose man in defense or a tagging half back. The measure of his success is how often oppo coaches are forced to plan around stopping him. How often does he have a defensive half forward on him? Heath Shaw often does, Taigh Keneally did, Jason Gram, Sam Fisher, Scarlett, Hurn, the list goes on. But oppo coaches don't put much effort into stopping Gibbs. We recruited him as a gun mid, but he hasn't been that. He has been good, but if you listed the best 15 medium sized players out of the last 8 drafts, where would Bryce come? Not his fault, the MC just won't develop him as a guy who will win us games, who will rest the initiative, who will cause oppo coaches sleepless nights wondering how to stop him. We have seen J R go from top 3 in the b&f to an ordinary player, Bower has gone backwards, and Gibbs may never get beyond being a neat half back. We need match winners.

I'm happy for Gibbs to play HBF providing he has a quality opponent to nullify - and of course set up the play from the back half. But when he is just floating around getting cheap kicks down back then yes I agree he is wasted to an extent.
Remember that Deledio and Hodge are a couple of No 1 picks who have both also spent a lot of their careers playing the rebounding half back role.

club29 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:42 pm

He went pick 1 back in 2006. It is irrelivent now.

.......and what all this tagging HB talk? Sounds like Synbad spin to me. He is a defender. I agree better when he has a man rather than the loose man role. He is good at that but gets bored and agitated.

Stick him on a man. Let him defend and win the one on ones, mop up loose balls and attack when he gets the opportunity. He is built for the job, he is great at that role and we will get a reliable defender for 100+ games more and he will finish a carlton champion.

Dominator7 · **Posted:** Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:47 pm

The last 2 pages have nailed it.

Our performance on fri lacked polish in the midfield, whereas geelong had mids kick goals.
Murphy is the class player we miss to finish off the work.

The only other player who has the polish is gibbs.

So there you have it, the missing piece is in the team but we decide that he is to be fully utilised stopping the oppositions best mid forward.

Dont get me wrong, gibbs as a mid has proven little, but we need to develop him there, and look for other solution down back.

R11: Carlton v Geelong (Post-match discussion)

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