I understand the analogy you're making, but if anything - Clough wasn't a big name - in fact he was at the same point in his managing career as what Ratts is now when Leeds appointed him.

The clash of culture, rather than the failure of it, which from most reports was over game style, could be a similiar one to Roos coming on board and bringing a Sydney game plan in to a team that probably doesn't suit it at all (see: Lyon/Fremantle).

Couldn't agree more that the culture needing to change supercedes whatever name could be drawn out of a hat at this point though.

OK no the review I see you're not a fan because someone might be related to someone and might sabotage the review!

are you listening to what you are saying?

you are saying the review might influence the decisions this club makes about jobs for the boys and corruption within the club!

taking away your paranoia about the actual review for a minute you are saying that the club might be incapable of allowing itself to be reviewed independenty because the investigators might be gotten at?

After having a few days to cool down, here are my 5 cents:

- I have been in the pro-Ratten camp for years, but have turned a bit on him. The reason I supported him was that clubs with sustained success have been building and improved over a number of years: e.g. Geelong, C'wood etc. We were improving and I rather have a longer period of success than the one flash in a pan premiership like the Hawks.

- It seems to me that Ratts does not get the best out of our list and thats a real problem. Lets however not forget that its too easy just to focus on the coach. List management, recruiting and player development are crucial hallmarks of successful clubs. I think we are far from elite in this area. So I do agree with Sinners that ideally the whole operation should be reviewed.

- IMO the coach is mainly a people manager. You can hire good tacticians and technical coaches to support the coach. The Bummers have a good mix with Hird being a very good manager and Bomber being the tactical man. Look at the Crows how much the management of your players can turn things around. But its very complicated, small things can make a big difference. See how Wet Toast turned it in one season with the same coach.

- Also, what works at one club does not have to work at another. Look at Melbourne. I think that the coach could have been very good at a club like ours with his focus on discipline and structure, but at Melbourne it completely backfired. It's the same as with companies, I have seen so many people coming in with great records at one company but failing at another. We are talking about humans and no one has the magic wand.

- I think we have some very good assistant coaches. We do seem to have an inability to perform to the maximum and adhere to instructions and weakness' in our game plan. Malthouse said on the week-end that he would not focus on changing everything but to do what we do much better (yes motherhood, but true).

- There is a big risk that changing coach might not work. There might be other areas in the club that need changing more. If you are not in the guts of it, you don't know.

- A possible short term solution might be to help Ratts on the management side. Maybe hire Malthouse as a mentor, a bit like Bomber and Hird?

- But I agree that someone needs to take a good hard look at the whole club. Our 2nd and 3rd round draft picks have been bad. Our player development seem to be crap. I again ask, how can Grigg be such a dud at our club and a good player (who we really could use right now) at the Tigers?

Finally, could people be a bit nicer to each other here? We all love the club - no need to be so vicious towards each other. I have had a couple of "interesting" years (see my avatar) and gained some perspective on live and the shortness of it. It costs nothing to be respectful and kind.

Thats my 5.

rhino, my analogy is not about *insert coach name* its more about cultures!
having said that ratten is a product of a culture not a plan directed by innovative planning and process!

we have him because of a cultural mindset!

he was not the best then and he is not today!

culture is great but like a bee you go to the flower and take what you need to make honey!

let Mr c answer this!

he is OK potting me but must come up with a genuine answer about why he is.
let him search deep within himself and have a real reason why people who are genuinely concerned about the road this club has taken over a long period of time.

he cannot hide his reasons why we should not be concerned.

he like everybody else involved with the club must show some accountability on why they know it's all going well!

I am looking forward to his answer as it might help me understand the plan better!

muddying the waters by asking me to give names who can do a better job that average is not what I am looking for.

because. ..........many people can do better than average and I shouldn't have to name them!

You guys all talk about reviews, but an independent review isn't going to get you that far no matter what the recommendation. It's the same with Strategic Plans, Business Plans, Assurance Plans, etc etc...you can get a consultant to come in and do the leg work...pay them a nice amount of coin and get an impartial point of view delivered- but unless this is adopted, owned and believed in from the President / Board / CEO down then it's not worth much more than the paper it's printed on.

Deflect, deflect and throw in a smoke screen. Where do I suggest I'm not a fan of a review. At what point have I sounded paranoid.

Spare me the BS. I just asked you if you would give it a rest if a review didn't fall your way. Since you haven't answered the question as per normal I have my doubts you would except it, regardless of who the AFL might use. But then if I was a betting man that was like backing Black Caviar.

Lets see you write the words.....'Yes I would accept any result if a review was done'

Regards Cazzesman

we could always review the review....ad infinitum...

Mr c we are discussing being average and I suggest a review and you are deflecting to your usual bunch of trials about me. so I am assuming you don't like reviews!
as instead of answering the question about one thing that we are doing that's great you are hypothesizing about what I would be doing!

if you don't mind a review and believe it is warranted you are agreeing with me the club needs to be sorted out!.

so we agree! the club needs to be checked by the doctor to find our ills?

Shit Dr you've just given Synbad his escape clause....................now he doesn't have to think one up he can just cut and paste yours

Regards Cazzesman

Hi mikkey.
wise words, and could not agree more.
I was wondering if that was you in the avatar pic.
What the hec happened there? (If you care to elaborate?)
Am just about to do 30 rounds with the Radiation Machine myself, but I know I'll beat the shit out of that battle. Piece of cake. I hope you are much better now.

Long story, but should have been dead 3 times in the last couple of years for 3 different reason. First undiagnosed COPD with some attacks that nearly killed me a couple of times. Then a P-plater who rammed my MC after I told him off for doing burn outs in an area with kids (and nearly killed me). And then a cancerous tumor inside my spinal cord which they only detected because of the accident (broken neck). Living without vertebrae's in my neck ,a lot of nerve damage, and bad breathing, but doing all right - all of that in a time frame of 10 months. It was interesting.