Yes, yes.
Wonderful contribution Sugarcane. We get it.



Really?
What system and game plan have you noted that is different to last year?

As for 2011 being an uncompetitive year for the comp, what does that mean? There was no GWS, there was no pathetic Melbourne.
As for us being in every game, thats all good and well but several of those teams we actually beat in 2011 and 2012. We werent just competitive against them, we actually beat them.
I'm not sure I follow your thinking.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

BV

..playing wider, kicking longer.. ..more man on man, less reliance on a few stars.. ..and more understanding between players on field..

..it doesnt matter which teams were in the comp for 2011, and which we crap.. ..the season as it played out showed a clear divide between the top bacth [top4], and the rest of the comp.. ..there usually is a gap sure, but so as big as it was in 2011..

..as for us beating the odd good team big whoop, plenty of top teams drop a game against crap sides.. ..we see it every year, but for the last couple of seasons no, we actually havent beaten many teams above us at all.. ..but there was no consistency between efforts/performances.. ..we were either very good, or very bad.. ..we needed to bridge that gap, which we have.. ..while we are learning the new coach and he's learning us.. ..taking that into consideration as well, yes we are doing better, its more than simple win/loss record..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

I'm not following you.
In one breath you're saying its good we're competitive against sides, yet its "big whoop" that we actually beat them in the past.

What would you prefer? To have a close loss or actually win? I'm not following you.
As for not beating teams above us in previous years, perhaps thats because we were higher up the ladder and the teams above us are the best sides? This year we cant beat the Richmonds, Collingwoods or Essendons to date.
I dont think we should be lauding close losses to them. In the past our bare minimum was a win. Now its great we're close.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I never seen this season as the year we push, I saw it as a season for malthouse to introduce his style, establish strengths & weaknesses and then address them, target what's required in the preseason and dispose of what's not required.
I'm happy with the season thus far, we are playing more a team brand of footy and our endeavour and desperation has improved.
What I'm liking the most though is the depth growing, players on the cusp of being A graders have stepped up ie) Gibbs, Walks, Garlett, etc and others have taken their games to a new level ie) Army, Hendo, Cachia, White, Lucas, etc.
Also loving the kids in the VFL, only seen bits and pieces of games but Buckley, Graham, Temay & Menzel all look the goods and are natural footballers rather than athletes, McInnes will be regular in the seniors & even Mitchell, Casboult & Laidler are all moving in the right direction as fwd targets.
Add Bell who is a human wrecking ball & Ellard and there is solid evidence of good looking second teir of players.

I'm also confused, what teams have we beaten above us this season? Are we celebrating honourable losses now?

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Bv we were less competitive last year and our list was put together by the previous fish.

I think we're doing OK.

A third of the list is useless to us......
Judd is a shadow of his former self.
The contribution is much better spread through so is playing and our performances are more even.

Doing a good enough job.... But must build.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

There is no doubt that MM is a proven coach, he also comes across as an ordinary bloke, loose with the truth, and petulant. Those things do matter, as he showed when he tried to derail the Pies because of the succession plan. But he has got one flag in the last decade, like a number of other coaches, the best coach in the AFL Ross Lyon hasn't got a flag. MM will get a better performance from the group, he seems to be able to get good performances from players - but is this group capable of winning a flag? And if our recruiting and development have left us short of flag level talent why pay out a fortune for an embittered 60 yr old. One things for sure, is whenever he goes from Carlton, it will end badly. I admire Pagan for keeping his mouth shut ever since he was sacked, no chance MM will do that no matter how well we do. If MM had the players, he could win a flag, but Cats, Hawks and Swans are clearly ahead of us. The Bombers have a better young list and are better performed, and Freeo have a worst list but are going better. And then there are GC and GWS who are going to be really good in 3 years.

Unfortunately we need to play the long game, as we should have anytime over the last ten years. We might be five drafts from a flag. I fear we will overpay for free agents, and if we don't sneak a flag we will be back to mediocrity and MM will be back in the press, expressing his martyrdom. I am afraid I am still stuck amongst the dreadful management of the past, and until we get a committee that seems to have a clear vision for a long term future, instead of flapping around like a beached fish, the prognosis is that we become eigthton, or even seventhton.

..us beating top teams in the past has been fool's gold.. ..last year twice vs pies, and yet got steam rolled by port and down to gc, and we didnt even play finals.. ..before that we'd beat cats or saints during their dominance, but we'd still play badly against poor teams and peers.. ..we were up and down for years.. ..now, we're far more consistent..

..i'll take a slow build, that we're showing, over up and down performances which will never get you top 4 let alone a flag.. ..we're not getting belted this season, thats already a big improvement, bigger than i think you give credit for.. ..add in the new coach and all that goes with it, and i think in the first half of this season we've shown good improvement and learning.. ..a few teething problems, sure.. ..but we also havent been injury free like 2011 as you claim.. ..no carrots for weeks, ditto waite early on.. ..missed krooz for a month, betts with broken jaw and then suspension.. ..judd no real pre-season and so a slow start to form.. ..tough start to the season draw wise as well while we're learning new gameplan etc etc.. ..if you cant see all factors in play i can only explain so much..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

It is not about whether you like MM
It is not about whether he leaves in 5 years in a state of petulance
It is not purely about whether he wins a premiership.
It is about whether he moulds a better list and harder side than what he inherited
It is about whether in 3 or 4 years we have a top 4 side
Blind Freddie can see we are tougher after 11 games.
Blind Freddie can see he is a better at player development
He needs minimum 2 drafts to build the list

You might have to use baby talk!

2011.
Kruezer missed 12 weeks, Waite missed 12 weeks, Henderson 9 games, Carrazzo 6 games, Jamison 10 games, Judd limited pre-season.....
Explain away....

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Another outstanding contribution.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I still dig yu BV.

In the first half of 2011 season we only losy by 25 points to Pies and drew against the Bumbers. AS the season progressed we lost by 36 to Doggies and 25 to the Eagles and again to Pies by 19 and StKilda by 19 too. Hawks had it over us without help from umpires.

2011 was a fantastic end to the season and despite being ripped off by the umps in the final we were awesome in that game. Like everyone else we expected top 4 in 2012, but 2013 we've cut our losing margin to 17 points...and imo because of the experimental nature of our game plan in the first 3 rounds against finals contenders we blew opportunities to win each of the first 3 which we should have.

In 2012 our opponents got an idea on how to nullify the one major assett we had: extreme speed. Essendon*, depsite injuroes to Carrots and Laidler smashed us physically and the rest of the comp worked out we had a soft underbelly. With Laidler, Carrazzo missing we got beaten by Sainst by 25 and they beat us physically....that's onky 3 injuries against the Saints..Judd played, Hendo played, Kreuzer played, then the following week with only 3 players missing we got smashed by Corws by 66. We lost to Port by 58 with Waite Hendo Murphy Laidler and Carrszzo mssing (5 players) . We los a lot of games without missing half the team as many suggest we did.

Our season got better the more injuries we had by beating Doggies and Richmond hehehe...and then when our players returned from injury towards the latter part of the season we beat Brissy and Bumbers by 96 pts, only to lose against GC (missing Laidler, Hendo, Robbo and Jammo and Saints (missing only Laidler and Hendo).

The injury curse/ excuse has been used and abused and imo can't be used in the GC and Saints losses when the players were playing for the coaches survival. That says it all.

Ratts had lost the players and I know for a fact some players thought Ratts talked down to them and some players got all the attention....and as we know many players were not on a good learning curve. In other words player development sucked at Carlton.

Ratts was finished as a coach. He had reached his peak in 2011 and it all fell apart from him at the end of his tenure and injuroes were not the reason.

Our losing margin against Cats, Pies, Hawks is no greater than 17 points and we should have won each of those games. The other games we've lost by 5, 5 and 9.

Yep, its blatantly obvious we have improved with MM. He's turned things around and been smart enough to change his own game plan to suit the cattle he has.

Am I wrong or am I right or am I tripping that we're better off with a master coach MM?

The footy world respects us more than when Ratts was around. The players are playing for the coach. I do not care what Rohan C from the Age has to say...he's a bigger sook than anyone. Now if the umpires would just do their @#$%&! job and players kicked a bit straighter (not MM's doing) we'd be top 4...and you know what....I still believe we could get there this year too. Don't you?

How the @#$%&! are we not a better team than last year?

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Everyone looks good in Navy Blue

I have no doubt we're a better team than last year. The difference is I believe we were decimated by injury and that is an overwhelming contributing factor.
You don't. We'll have to agree to disagree.

Coaches make very little difference compared to personnel IMO. Thats why quality recruiting managers are worth their weight in gold. Geelong arent a top side because Mark Thompson and Chris Scott are master coaches. Their success comes from the quality on their list.
The Eastern Ranges in the TAC are another example. Very poor the past couple of years, going well this year.
The coaching group is the same. Its the improvement in the quality of personnel available that is responsible for their improvement.
If that quality is eroded, teams very quickly come back to the pack. I believe that happened to us last year.

History tells us it happens to the best of coaches. Look at Malthouse with the Pies in 2005. Finished 15th!
Lost 10 of their last 11 games!!!!
Was that shit coaching or did injuries contribute?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

If you'd stop putting up stupid posts and abusing people you might find that you don't need to keep changing your name.

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“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

I reckon Ross Lyon and Mick Malthouse are two coaches who are pretty successful with what I would call less than quality lists.

Possibly but why then did the Pies lose 10 of their last 11 in 2005?

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I think people need to allow a season or two to take fold before pre empting where we are.

personally.... i look at leadership as a huge indicator of where we were at and where were at now...

we didnt address it

id blame one guy just as i would blame malthouse if its a problem year after next

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Ok, ok, let's settle this, - what is the pass mark in 2013, simple enough question, or is it a moving feast for future apologists?

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world