it is not about the tally at the end of the season now, its about this week's game.

So you want to lose this week's game?

And the week after, you want to lose that game?

and so on.

and if the answer is yes then why worry about pagan or the kids or anything. if the priority is to lose each week - to ensure you get your picks - then why not just go away for the year?

You do not want to see development, because that could lead to a win

You do not want to see effort, because that could lead to a win.

You do not want to see anything except a loss, so why waste money?

You'll only end up frustrated, no matter the outcome - either we win - yuk, we almost win, phew but yuk, or we get belted, -hooray I can enjoy that game all game but yuk its horrible to watch us get belted!

Unless you are a sadist and want a season of honourable 1 point losses.....

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I'd just like to stick up for NYT Dawg, people resort to cheap shots by mentioning that he is overseas - big deal! Does that make his opinion less worthy???

Agro you were guilty of this and that was where the retaliation came from. To all those pro-tankers out there - try actually answering the questions put to you in this argument without getting personal or just generally ranting.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

The reference to NBA was trying to belittle my knowledge of the game of footy. You can try to defend it but we can see the intent as clear as day. I'm an Aussie and am a football and Carlton fanatic. I played the game at a high level for 20 years and have never missed a Carlton game since I was a baby. That's all that matters and that's all you need to know.

As for tanking, which is the topic not the NBA or my over reaction earlier....

The WCE are a great example of a gun team that have never had to tank to do well. They show what a real club with honor can achieve. Mediocricy is not accepted.

2006 - 1st
2005 - 2nd
2004 - Finals
2003 - Finals
2002 - Finals
2001 - 14th
2000 - 13th
1999 - Finals
1998 - Finals
1997 - Finals
1996 - Finals
1995 - Finals
1994 - 1st
1993 - Finals
1992 - 1st
1991 - 2nd
1990 - Finals

Their 2006 premiership team was made up of the following draft picks

Pick 1-5 = 3
Pick 6-10 = 0
Pick 11-15 = 2
Pick 16-20 = 3
Pick 21-25 = 3
Pick 26-30 = 3
Pick 31-35 = 0
Pick 36-40 = 1
Pick 41-50 = 0
Pick 51-60 = 3
Rookies = 3
Father Son = 1

Still think we need to tank? Or can't we consider doing it by developing a winning team from now?

If I really thought a PP pick was on offer (ie it was round 20 and we had less than 5 wins) then fine tank the last two games. But play losing football from now is non Carlton.

Great evidence NYT, stop makin sense though, people hate that sometimes. I reckon in 2002 if some people here were WCE fans they would have been crying out for a year of tanking - haven't missed the finals since then either!

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Who is being selective now - the reference to the NBA was to indicate that a Round 1 selection in the NBA impacts on 20% of the starting lineup of an NBA side whereas the a round 1 selection in the AFL impacts on 6% of the starting line up of an AFL side - pretty clear reference I would have thought.

As for belittling your AFL knowledge - you dont need me to that for you - you seem to be handling that all by yourself.

Have you had a look out your 70th floor office window lately there maybe a 767 heading in your direction.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

13 losses to go

that's rubbish ... you should have heard the state full of the @#$%&! cocksuckers yesterday.

'its nice to let the other teams win for a change' and my personal favourite 'we're just ensuring that we get to play Geelong in the grand final'. Bunch of @#$%&! wankers every last one of them!!!

Hope they are selling their 2007 premiership shirts already like they were at round 13 in 2005. They are hands down the most clueless and arrogant supporters in the league... and all this with a manufactured Mcfootball club.

and their supporters saying that Carlton players were scared of their boys earlier in the year .... well i can tell you we didn't look half as timid as their mob yesterday. Its harder to come back from 40 points doiwn at the cattery without a bit of 'artificial stimulation' to aid the 'gut running' after half time....

All this evidence is fine (and accurate ) but you if have no quality list management to go with it, like we have not had - then it means nothing.

We have had no quality young players come onto our list (regularly) since 2003) and the list they joined was abysmal.

We need an injection of quality - very urgently in fact, and the fact that we still dont have enough quality in the 23 to 28 year old bracket - means that some of these younger players of quality may spend their first 40/60 games getting smacked/smashed.

Just Pick 3, 19 and 35 in this years Draft wont be enough, we need Pick 1, 3 and 19.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Pagan is tanking and he doesn't even mean it.

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"One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will agree with you only if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds." - Frank Zappa

- Walker
- Murphy
- Kennedy
- Gibbs
- Pick 1 (2007 National Draft)
- Pick 3/4 (2007 National Draft)

May well be the greatest legacy Pagan leaves in his tenure as our Coach of 2003 to 2007.

Unfortunately the way he coaches/develops them may be his damning indictment as well.

With more than an ounce of good management - Pagan wont have a chance to flower up this years Draft Picks.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

You don't seriously think we areGOOD ENOUGH to decide to tank.


As things currently stand we are brave....... play 3 qtrs and get run over the top of....

This is without Tanking!!

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Stay tuned We're in for a BUMPY ride

I agree with the silly attack on Agro i dont agree with his ideals but no point in name calling but i do think Nytdog makes a good point



Westcoast agreed have some excellent funds and facilities but in years 2000 and 2001 Judge took over the Eagles ..... team crashed not because the list was poor or average not because the team needed to loose games to get picks or anything. Purely the choice of coach. Judge took over and caused many ripples through the list and got a lot of players off side. Maybe personality .. maybe lack of respect ... maybe poor comunitcation or game plan
Net result the eagles dropped to 14th and 13th

2002 Woosher leaves the Blues for Eagles gig and instantly the same list that was struggling at 13th and 14th hits finals again. This may not be the same result for the Blues but geez i really want to see our list for what it maybe and be surprised that we may have a better list than what is showing. There have been several other examples of change of coach bringing positive results and also some for the worse.

This list isnt as bad as made out and i strongly believe a change of coach will do more than hoping my team looses 18 games in the year and seeing the kids struggle and fail to get properly developed. We can see how the kids in other teams are givin far more freedom and being allowed to be creative... yes Murphy was given that but he was ready made.. We all share similar opinions of the other kids on our list over last 3 years.

The change of coach may suddenly release a new lease of life from our list. worth testing this after 4 years of spin and told we have a young list

One coment from Pagan in the loss to collingwood "was that carlton was not ready to compete with the competitions elite" i hardly call the Filth an Elite club with a fair mix of kids who i dont rate as equal to the Blues. better senior mix but Eite .... what a load of crap or is it that any team the beats us is an Elite Team in the competition.

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

It isn't as good as its made out either.


Not sure where you are coming from Wolfe.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Agro maybe you need to read the whole post

As stated i would like to see how this list performs under another coaching option even under Ratten and maybe see him as care taker but being a more positive influence allowing the kids to create and develope

Just to see how a new voice influences the team

You want to loose to get a your priortiy picks i want the coach to change to get another perspective of the list

Easier to change one individual and see what affect he had on the team vs changing the list to appeal to one individual

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

Wolfe I am all for a new coach - but I am all for better cattle as well.

The opportunity for better cattle is staring us in the face.

Picks 1 3 and 19 plus a new coach for Season 2008.

If we proceed to get 10 cheap wins this year - it will be like 2004 all over again.

Our kids learnt a lot by Saturday's game - and the Brisbane game - I dont care if we lose like that for the rest of the season (well I care because I still spit it when we lose) but the the learnings that our kids can take out of that experience - eg Setanta in the Ruck etc.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

We will agree to dis-agree Agro

If we are 4 wins at round 18 i prob be on your wagon

if we win 7 games i accept that and hopefully means kids improving

But i will be happier when the coach changes

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CFC TAC Squad everyone over 25 must be traded sounds like Loguns Run

Just give me the best players and the best coaching staff so that when we eventually get back to the top our reign will create a dynasty that is unparalled in AFL history - then these past 5-6 years will have been worth it.

If that means picking up an extra priority pick then so be it. I don't necessarily think that we will be playing for it, but we sure do need it.

I thought we were knocked back a couple of years because Pagan didn't want to draft a ruckman and we let Wood go.

How did the Dogs fare with the extra pick that year?

The PP is useless unless you pick the best kids and develop them as well the interstaters and Collingwood have done due to having more money. We would have fared better than the Dogs in the 2004 draft who had a PP if we had picked

- Wood
- Prismall
- Knights

If we win the extra pick that might be considered a bonus if we pick the players all the self appointed experts think are the best available kids on offer. But I wouldn't knock back more wins due to the kids coming on and Grigg, Kennedy, Benjamin and Edwards playing good footy in the second half of the year.

Not that will happen under Pagan.

Anyway, back on topic, hearing Greg Miller bleating about the 2 year PP rule today, I reckon it'd almost be worth us winning 4 games just for the pleasure of seeing Richmond finish last and still not get the No.1 pick.

I hate Richmond - the spiritual home of Kevin Sheedy, Neale Balme and that little cheat Kevin (you can't tackle me because I'm bouncing the ball) Bartlett.

I must say John, of all people I was thinking the same thing this morning and you couldn't wipe the snigger off my face. I hate what the AFL has become however.