Not sure why ratten name keeps getting brought up. Left the club with a winning record and a finals bound team when healthy.
Ratten is a club legend, mick is still scum and driving the club into the ground. I reckon he is getting a bonus from eddie. But mm lovers, keep bending down and sucking his stroodle for all I care. Just dnt bring ratten in to it. If you actually watch carlton play they dont have a game plan recognizeable. He has lost the players. Anyone can see that. Any other coach gets the sack

Watson and Lucas would develop differently and far quicker under a leadership group like the cats, or the Swans, Hawks...

We have been a production line for mediocrity and failure and it starts with the dishonesty and timidness of the leadership - and that includes Judd

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Vice President, International Extreme Sarcasm Society (IESS)

Probably the same reason Paul Roos doesn't get the sack from Melbourne for only winning 4 games. You can only work with what you've got and we aint got much.

+1 we also have the most under done / unfit list in memory. The amount of players who missed large chunks of preseason or are playing with minor injuries is most of the list. People here excel so much in player and coach bashing without knowing the full story - it's depressing

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TC suffers from the social media illness - the death of respect and constructive discourse by keyboard.

You're right BV, no one was banging down the door for Mick. It was a hasty (so typical Carlton like) decision which pisses me off no end.

But WC did in 1990, Coll did in 2000 and Carlton did in 2013.
Perception or otherwise, such is his standing. Ratten...doubt he'll ever get a senior gig again and that's all my argument was

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

At the end of 2012 Mick inherited a Carlton list in reasonable condition and in fact said so himself publicly when he announced that he was happy with the list and wouldnt make too many changes. He has had 2 pre seasons and now almost two full seasons to produce some improvement in our output as a team.

Paul Roos is trying to improve a poorer list, which also has long term problems. Hard to compare Mick's 4 wins with Pauls 4 wins. Perhaps in a couple of seasons a comparison can be made

It may be more enlightening to compare how Hinkley has gone at Port since taking over at the end of 2012 - the same time Mick was given the carlton job.

have you looked at the starting points for both coaches at the end of 2012?

Hinkley ended up being named the 2013 coach of the year by the AFLCA. He is paid half that of Mick, an his footy department has 8 million dollars less to spend on each year. Micks first year was about average with 11 wins and a gift by the AFL to play the tigers int he first final.

CHAMPION DATA 2012

CARLTON
Defenders 14th
Midfield/Rucks 3rd
Forwards 2nd
LIST QUALITY 9th

MELBOURNE
Defenders 12th
Midfield/Rucks 16th
Forwards 8th
LIST QUALITY 13th

PORT ADELAIDE
Defenders 18th
Midfield/Rucks 12th
Forwards 17th
LIST QUALITY 17th

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Vice President, International Extreme Sarcasm Society (IESS)

Why do people keep compare us to port.For a start port players are fitter and stronger then ours also they have a modern game planand better players due to better recruiting.

...because the truth hurts

[FRYBIE]

(incidentally how did the Port list which is was rated 2nd poorest in the league at the end of 2012, become superior to ours which was rated 9th in just one pre season under Hinkley?)

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Vice President, International Extreme Sarcasm Society (IESS)

You answered your own question. The data you're referring to is flawed. Ports list wasn't the 2nd worst in the afl in 2012, primus was just a poor coach.

I see

and the opposite is true now with Mick?

if Primus was a poor coach in 2012 for winning 5 games, does that make Ratten an absolute genius winning 11 games and having injuries all season?

If Hinkley was appointed coach of carlton and Mick got the Port head coaching job, the results would have been reversed since 2012?

Is that what you are saying?

We can only go on the results and data - not pick and choose depending on the weather.

Hinkley this year has already knocked off the cats and the Hawks - and shoudl have beaten th Swans in Sydney when they went down by a kick in the dying minutes. Those are huge strides for a new coach and a confidence building team.

And ladies and gentlemen WE ALL know what the blues have put out on the ground since Mick arrived dont we...the same old piss weak garbage.

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Vice President, International Extreme Sarcasm Society (IESS)

How do you know that?

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

You say Ports list quality was 2nd worst in the AFL, but a key variable to that data is the coach. So if you have an average coach then obviously your list quality will look poor. There is no denying Hinkley is a good coach but he didn't take over as bad of a list as you're making out.

Ratten may well be a genius but I guess we'll never know, as its unlikely we'll ever see him coaching in the AFL again.

EFA: Anyone who wants to see that

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If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

I dont - Champion Data said so - in fact Champion data also rated Port very low the previous year as well

Champion data rated the Hawks with the best list and stated that the 2013 flag was theirs to lose.

The Hawks main weakness was their midfield/Rucks which was rated 9th in the league (we were rated the 3rd best midfield in the league)

The Hawks knew that too when the Swans midfield killed them on the attack in the 2012 GF.

That's why they recruited Ratten when he left Carlton. That's his strong area - midfield and stoppages.

His his first preseason Mick had to get our fitness up (like Hinkley did), our self belief up (like Hinkley did), our discipline up (like Hinkley did) and our workrate up (like Hinkley did).

then Mick had to address one glaring weakness that Ratten left him and that was our defence which was rated 14th in the league - cant get anywhere in finals without a solid miserly defense

Did Mick Malthouse get any of these right since arriving? He slotted in his mate Robert Wiley as director of coaching and development (out of his depth) and brought in Brad Green as a new assistant coach because he liked him when they went to Ireland together.

Now he tells us that he looks through the coaches box window on game day and doesnt recognise the game that being played. If he wasnt coaching, he wouldnt even like the game of Aussie Rules.

This is not acceptable from our senior coach (and i am a fan of Mick's coaching philosophy - but I am a carlton member first)

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Vice President, International Extreme Sarcasm Society (IESS)

What does Champion data say about our current list? Can you post that data for 2014 please?

Great posts, Camel and Moshe

Actually I couldnt even get the data for the end of 2013 let alone an up to date rating

Their website, may be a pay type website

you may have better luck than me http://www.championdata.com/

(I think they release older data = the current Champion data prospectus is $39.95)

[CHEERS]

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Vice President, International Extreme Sarcasm Society (IESS)

So .... what have I missed over the past couple of weeks? Has MM got his contract extension yet? Surely it's not too far away!

3 points from a prelim... or bust!

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

Its an impossible arguement. The pro malthouse lobby will brook no criticism of the great man. If we lose to melbourne or brisbane it is our list our list. Apparently mick is totally responsible for the improvement of rowe buckley and menzel....who ever thought guys in their 2nd or 3rd year of afl would improve? But clearly mick has no responsibility for garlett, waite, armfield going dreadfully and hendo, tuohy, warnock, walker, going backwards. And what has ratts to do with it. Another fallible carlton decision. I don't think we should have appointed him in the first place, but the fact that there is scant evidence that mick is better indicates where he sits. How is he going against the good senior coaches? Oh thats right, we have less talent than university did in their last season of afl. Mick is just another hasty ill thought out appointment. We are the best in the league at that. But hey, don't criticise the coach. Blind faith got this club where we are today. Lets glory in our mediocrity. PS and i intensely dislike the self serving bloke.