Ever thought that perhaps it was just a bad week of football? From halfway through the second the guys were out of puff, running on the spot.

I dare say the first thing Ratten would have said is "put that behind us, we're better than that".

I've already moved on. We're better than Friday Night, and I'm sure we'll see more of the side that took on St Kilda than didn't take on Essendon*.

Must win at Subi this week, and back up against Richmond the week after.

My biggest concern is that that isn't a fitness issue though, or even just everyone having an off day, i personally believe it's just the players not being willing to make an effort.

Like already stated the discussion is about the credibilty of those who constantly bag. They may be credible...they may not...the jury is out till they put up

_________________
Go BLues

OK, can you let the Mods know that from now on, please attach supporting evidence, affidavits, full medicals and professional CV's when giving an opinion.....or as you put it, "bagging"

_________________
If I want your opinion, I'll give it to you!

Good idea...maybe we can start with you...just PM it to me...

_________________
Go BLues

Its not just Ratten. The whole football department needs a overhauling

9 games left, 6 of them against bottom 8 sides. Logic tells you we're over the hardest part of our draw and on the downhill run.
Heaven forbid we'll make the finals and maybe even win one.

What will you sook about then?
Some people need to remember where we've come from.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Look, draw a line from where we've been:

(at the very bottom)


To where we want to be:

(at the very top)


Then look at the halfway point on that line. It's 8th. And that's exactly where we sit today. Does anyone think we should be better than halfway there? 'Cos I don't. Is anyone actually disappointed that we won't challenge for the flag this year? 'Cos I'm not.

Doesn't mean we couldn't do some things better, but the way this discussion sometimes heads, you'd think Ratten is doing a Terry Wallet on us, and coaching us to 15th spot in his fourth year.

I'm not 100% happy with some of our performances and far from it with Friday night's effort but what is the deal with the ongoing lionisation of Essendon*? A week ago they were below us on the ladder having had a far softer draw to that point. So they belted us? We belted Collingwood and they're now above us on the ladder and suddenly Malthouse is a genius who gets the best out of a shit list. Really got the best out of them against us didn't he?

Two weeks ago everyone was raving about our side's performance against one of the top two sides in the competition. One game later we can't play football and we're hopelessly amateur.

Essendon* are another young developing team like us and are just as inconsistent. Brisbane beat them by 43 and Port by 41. Before playing us they'd only beaten Melbourne and Richmond in the previous five weeks. Wow - those players must be so well drilled!

There are a huge number of on-field issues that need to be sorted out with our side but that's not going to happen in a few months (see Geelong and how long it took them to become the team they are now) but the suggestion that Essendon* are somehow miles further down the path than us is utter crap.

Forget about us for a moment and above everything else the thing that no one should ever forget is that Essendon* are shit. I don't care if they win their next 10. They're still shit. Always will be. Don't use them as a benchmark because a) they've done @#$%&! all and b) they're shit.

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

BV I think the last 9 games can go either way, really we should makes the finals, even if we just sneak in, IMO that's all I expected prior to the season starting and is a pass mark for Ratts. We then have a summer to work on the deficiencies and re-evaluate our goals.

The concern I'm starting to have now is our inability to win against bogey sides and produce a streak of wins under Ratts guidance. If we failed to make the finals with the draw we have remaining, IMO people are entitled to start questioning Ratts as a senior coach. Yes we have come from a along way back, but we also have IMO remained stagnant if we miss again, I would want reasons as to why this has happened.

If i were an opposition coach id want Fev chasing to the backline..
If i was our coach i wouldnt be sending Fev to the backline.

On Spider... if he thinks you need to play AFL to see were doing the basics wrong... well hes looking at the world through weird coloured glasses.

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Can i also add...
If i need AFL qualifications to express my opionions on Talking Carlton.

Wouldnt Ratten need coaching qualifications to coach Carlton.... and Sticks qualifications to be president?

Where is the consistency spider?

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Essendon* are front runners and wont achieve anything under Knights.
They are 16th for blocks in the AFL and their playing philosophy is based on running ahead of the contest. In fact, Knights instructs his players to avoid blocking and to run hard to create an option for the recieve!
When the game is nice and open and they're controlling the uncontested ball, they're world beaters but when the opposition dominate the tempo of the game, they are garbage.
The key is to make them accountable for their actions. Our players need to spread from the contest when we win possession and control the uncontested ball as well. Teams too often take them on and focus on the contested possession but taking advantage of their "looseness" is the key.

Have a look at their effort against Geelong. 78 points down at 3/4 time before Geelong rested all their stars.
Teams need to have a gamestyle that is sustainable in September as well. Theirs wont come close.

_________________
Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Ok so theyre frontrunners who easily account of us.. each time they play us.
Doesnt say much about where were at.....and we havent played Geelong.

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Essendons gameplan is finals sustainable iof they play we make it and they end up playing us in the finals.

Theyre doing very well considering they have more key injuries than we do..


But yeah.... we should laugh at Essendon*...

_________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I am not sure if this season will be measured a success or failure based on making the 8. It is rather how we go against comparable sides, how we improve as a team and individual players, how our MC goes under pressure and when they have been given a blueprint of an opposing sides plans - as we had been Friday night. The capacity of the coaching panel to develop and implement a coherent and workable game plan etc.

I don't think coming 8th will prove Ratts is going to be great coach (or not). I think if Dennis Pagan or Wayne Brittain had come into the club at the end of 07 we would be going okay this year.

The things that concern me are Ratts authority - is he too much a mate? Does Fev take any notice of him or just continue to play when he feels like it? Ratts seems like a supporter barracking in the box. That is endearing but most coaches rarely show much emotion. I am concerned that our President sees fit to sit in the box and is asked to rev up the boys before a big game. I think the Alan Killigrew days are over, it's all about process and not emotion these days.

Sometimes Ratts sounds out of his depth with endless quoting of stats. He shouldn't be telling us the what - ie they had more contested ball etc, but the how and why.

It is also a worry that we rely so much on Judd's brilliance and Fev's moods. If both are down we don't win.

On the other hand on the surface of it final 8 will be a good achievement, although I think Frawley got the Tiges in the 8 too so it is not the ultimate sign of where you are going.

People are right in saying that the selection process, no matter how flawed, is a separate issue from Ratt's performance. But I think the selection process right through the coaching panel is flawed.

We allegedly have a policy of recruiting the best which we seemed to follow with Icke and Swann and the fitiness guy (Julian Someone??). And then how lucky are we, Teague and Lappo retire and lo and behold they turn out to be the best two development coahes going around, and then - who would have thought it - Lappo also turns out to be the best forward coach in Australia - or perhaps he isn't.

Our MC has very little coaching experience because Ratts has so little experience. We have Mark Riley who he knew from his one year at Melbourne and then a whole lot of ex team mates. Do they challenge him, who is his mentor? Who provides a balanced opinion from outside the fold? To what extent has Ratts been exposed to the way other clubs do things, to the way successful other clubs do things. His experience of success at Carlton is a footy generation ago.

It also worries me that he was given two more years on his contract when he wasn't halfway through his first contract. Why? What sort of committee would leap in and do this? Why not wait till the end of this season? No other clubs were queueing up for a coach from 2nd div EDFL. I think around about now he could have been extended to the end of 2010 and towards the end of 2010 we could have a clear eyed decision.

He is going okay, but it is way too early to declare that he is the guy to take us to the flag. And I would feel a lot more confident if he had beaten all other potential coaches in a detailed selection process. The process doesn't mean he wouldn't have been the man, but it makes you ask how the decision makers could clearly judge he was better than any other potential coaches when the selection process seems to have been -'Vossy's turned us down, okay Ratts the jobs yours"

It's a valid question and it's a shame our old friends MarkH and StephenM aren't around anymore to maybe to help out with an answer.

_________________
There's so much I could say...

You'd almost think they had Camporeale as an assistant coach...

_________________
“When a clown moves into a palace, he doesn't become a king. The palace turns into a circus.”
Turkish Proverb

Dont agree......they have a better balanced list with better structure and have some forward planning in place to cover for retiring ex A graders in Lloyd, Lucas and Fletcher....we have no young forwards to replace Fev and more deadwood.
They chopped their deadwood like Johns, the Johnsons, Bradley etc and we retain ours ie bannister, wiggins, houlihan becuase the footy dept lack the courage.

Essendon* were meant to be cellar dwellars doing their time like and us and being embarrased every week etc etc.....well it hasnt worked out that way and they are right with us along with teams like the Crows who also have magically rebuilt with good young kids like walker, tippett etc.

As for looking soft, blocking for teammates etc....while I agrere Essendons game is not built around that we dont exactly have the goods in that area and would seen as one of the softest teams going around.....Essendon* intimidated us in that game and we did nothing.... a so called ordinary player like
Lonergan beat two of our players for the ball, brushed Browne aside and our bloke gave up chasing in piece of play and it was embarrassing to watch....I think we need to look at our blocking, tackling and intensity because they have us covered.....
Something isnt right when you lose 5 times in a row to what you would call a garbage team....

_________________
"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

How did Ratts get the job, let me speculate...

Carlton were chasing Voss hard but then he decided he didn't want to be coach yet.
You had Judd on the gaff but needed early picks to seal the deal - the PP was beckoning.
Ratts was a candidate for the Melbourne job after Daniher resigned.
He got appointed as caretaker at Carlton and withdrew from the MFC race.
Carlton needed to lose all remaining games for the year, the only way for that to happen was with a complicit coach.
Ratts was told that wins don't matter.
To avoud this situation you really needed to appoint a caretaker with absolutely no ambition to coach and a willingness to lose to get Kruezer and Judd to the club - but that would've been quite tricky.
You managed the situation very well overall to land Judd and Kruezer but the result was that Ratts got the job without due process.

FWIW I think you're jumping off way to early and the comparison with Richmond in the 80s is eerie. It's not going to be difficult for a club that has had an aeon of success followed by a short down period to begin to eat its own when that success does not return immediately. Murphy, Gibbs and Kruezer are still babies and Warnock hasn't even played yet. Waite is out. I'm not sayiing there are no issues and over-reliance on Judd and Fev is a start. But I think you need to be a little patient.