So the answer is 'No, I see no value to the club of those 10 wins in 2004, in fact, I see it as detrimental to the Club and very short-term in thinking'

How'd I go?

West Coast didnt need handouts??
WhaTS Judd????
Gardiner???

and on just because something happened once .. it doesnt mean it will happen again....


For instance... if you pick up a root at Flinders street station at 6 pm on a Monday.. does that mean youll bet your house it will happen again this monday at 6 pm????


Love your logic.....

Im asking a question!!!.... would you rather have Deledio and Franklin or Lance and Kouta....???

Its just a hypothetical i didnt claim it to be anything else...

I didnt say it was possible to do.. im just outting things into perspective...

Ok scrub Franklin and Deledio.. lets just use Griffen and Tambling...or Roughead???

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molesy , you have a great way with words..

What happened is almost like another Black Friday...except we did it to ourselves..

in your heart of hearts what do you think???

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Gardiner they traded for, with Ian Downsborough, Shane Bond and Brayden Lyle

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Love Cricket? Love me

Oh heck, the fencesitter asked to get off the fence????

I think results are results and I don't believe Pagan would ever tank in the same way that Collingwood did in 2005 with team selection. I'm not going to debate whether you should or not as that's not the question.

But I think we really overdid the whole trading strategy at the end of 2003. People need to remember it wasn't just trades but those late draft picks for Mott, Bannister, Bowyer (retreads) but second chancers in the VFL (Kenna, Deluca). I think we took a minimum of 5 too many retreads and would have much preferred to see youngsters coming through the list, even if they didn't make it. Hartigan and Maxwell could have been solid players, of course, using hindsight.

But the thing is did these guys, plus some of the latter trades, really impact on our 2004? The key retreads in 2004 were Teague and Scotland, McGrath didnt perform in 2004 so he's to be excluded, and the rest were at best average (Johnson (sorry PJ), Morrell, Harford, Clarke). I'd argue that the rest gave nothing to those wins in 2004, with the regulars including a very good Camporeale and a brilliant Lappin leading the way.

To me, if you ignore deliberate losing, our 2003 strategy was flawed but did not contribute to those 10 wins. The remainder of the list did that. After 2002 and 2003, improved performance frmo those guys was what we wanted, and what we got.

Back on the fence, hey, I may go do some Blueseum stuff.

Would anybody trade us an early pick for 3 duds????.....
Wont even give us anything decent for our GREAT players..

so how do we build a team if were not going to get ourselves early picks.. ESPECIALLY Freebies...

Its really easy to see how clubs can just fall away off the pace and be shit like StKildas and Richmonds....

Your standards of what youre after just keep dropping and dropping till finally you die....

Oooh but those handfull of wins were great wernt they???

thats how StKlda supporters were.. remember thenm if they beat us???? it was like they won a GF.. now were their bitches....!!!.. and if we arse a victory it will be like weve won a GF..

Lets get back to what we used to be like.. and that can only be done with GREAT players...!!!!!... and a few of them....

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molesy, our problem is were dropping away.. we dont want to lose games.. but were crap!!...

So god help us if we dont get those really early picks..

And over and above that....were bringing in average players.

We dont need any more average players.. we have enough average players to be last.

We need champions!!.. if you cant bring players in that can make a difference.. a real difference.. dont bring in any for the sake of it...!!!

Either bring in a great player or none at all should be our mantra..

Were fast becoming a crap club (not just team)

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Well, 94,95 and 96 were the times to do it.

94 - Lloyd for Delaney, Kickett and Ridley
95 - Wirrpunda for Haynes and Godden
96 - Gardiner for those duds.

WHY DIDN'T WE MAKE THESE TRADES!!???

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Love Cricket? Love me

The way I see it we were dropping away but we have stemmed the tide. We were bringing in average players and have been burnt, probably not burnt enough because we still did those two late trades last year. Saddington I have no problem with because I see him as a filler for 3 years until Bower gets physically ready, but thats a separate point.

I remember being told that we originally tried to give up Pick 103 for Longmuir but the Australian Demetriou League said thats not a real trade, give up something earlier... 73!

History will show that in 2005 we brought in 4 fantastic players. We have stemmed the time and done it out without burning off too many members, other than someof our more financial members who remain estranged from the Club.

The reason why i used all five of those kids as an example is we know in our heart of hearts Lanc and Kouta cant turn this club around.. but very early picks can...

There is onlyone way out of this.. YOUTH YOUTH YOUTH!!.. as much elite talent is as possible...

Those blokes are yesterdays players in this rumble tumble competition.

There is no room for sentiment with people that really cant help turn this club around and are costing us hundreds of thousands of dollars....


Those blokes had their go and couldnt do it...

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I'll bite
1. Lance/kouta would not have netted franklin/deledio. The main reasons being age and injury history.
2. Fev/ Stevens may have netted us a few early picks

If we were to go down the path of trading players for picks (something that I've been open to for a while) then we SHOULD have done it as the earliest opportunity. Given that we didnt pursue that opportunity who is to blame?

For mine it seems as if it has taken you (and a few others) a VERY long time to even consider criticising/questioning the current administration or the coaching panel. Of course, its a lot easier to rant in hindsight

For the record, I would have
1. delisted less players in 2003, drafted purely untried youth, not traded for recycles (includes keeping mckernan on for the rest of his contract)
2. traded heavily into 2004 draft (the first one we could trade into the first couple of rounds). Obviously trades would be attempts though you would only need 1/2 to go through to be on the way for rebuilding)
- traded stevens + part salary for an early first rounder in 2004 (ie hawks pick 5)
- traded Fev for an early first rounder in 2004 (ie dogs pick 3)
- traded Campo+part salary for a mid first rounder in 2004 (ie targetting Essendon* pick 14 or one of ports early picks that year)
- traded french for a first round pick (17) or mid range player from st kilda


If required, the 2nd round pick would have been thrown into any deal if it meant access to the priority picks

It's all fine and dandy to wish things were different, but it ain't gonna make a lick of difference. It's just playing the hypothetical game.

A wise man once said "Wish in one hand, shit in the other and see which one fills up first". I think it was either Mr Myagi or Santa.

IMO the harsh reality is that of what Synbad is saying, its just that he gets striaght to the point, and it offends some. We can gloss it all up as much as we like but the reality is that the course of action that the club took in drafting retreads didn't work.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and i'd like to think that if we could turn back time we wouldn't have recruited retreads, we would of been better off drafting young unproven hopefuls, and maybe just maybe found a gem or two, all at a dicounted price too.

I think that the stance the club took this year vindicates this. Maybe not whole heartedly but at least a little more confidently.

Losing Campo for nothing , playing hardball with lappin and lance, putting fear into Fev by suggesting he is tradeable, cutting Karl for nothing.
Its a start.

Sure Synners you're right in what you say but the people who are running the club are the ones at fault not just the players( bludging ) or the supporters ( false hope ).

I'd be very very curious to see what happens come seasons end 2006. I for one always want to see my club win but am realistic in that i know what our capabilities are. My expectations are not high, but come seasons end no matter how badly or well we do , if the club doesn't make some hard core list changes then i 'd hope that there will be a long line of us together knocking on Collos and Pagans door for explainations

In closing we will improve this year and whether we win 5 games or 10 games the only way we will rise to the top again is to make sacrifices. i really hope come seasons end those sacrifices are made, cause the only reason we will improve this year is beacuse we have started the ball rolling and small steps will become bigger steps.

Thats my opinion anyway.

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I know a little secret. And i'm not sharing.

its all cats playing with yarn..... very Zen




don't you think tommi




very.....

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Have there been any Whitnall gags in this thread yet?

if not, I'm disappointed, and thrilled, by some of you.

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Love Cricket? Love me

what do you get when you cross Lance with a certain sailorman?












a sinking ship.......

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I would have thought Lance crossed with Synbad would be a particularly gloomy lemming

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Love Cricket? Love me

tension in the air.....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I'm confused..........youth or experience, win or lose, trade or not trade, tank or not tank

Can somebody let me know when it's time to support the players we have & barrack for a win.