there are 2 concerns I have
1 the number of thrashings we had is a bad sign .No fight and powder puff footy.Sometimes if the coach is respected you play for the coach and you get over the line or at worse have a small defeat and show something every match.At times in games this hasnt occured and that is not just because of a lack of talent.

2 tatically on match day.Some of the moves or lack of them have been mystifying to say the least.Eg Prendergast sitting on the bench or playing up the ground against Geelong while Whitnall was playing in defense on the very ordinary Brad Ottens whilst the team struggled to snag a goal.Pagan finally made the move in the last 3 minutes of the match.

The thing that worries me about this approach is that it doesn't make us any different to the St Kilda's of this world who just sat at the bottom taking their hand outs from the AFL. We shouldn't be content to sit at the bottom for a few more years, regardless of how much the penalties and previous administrations errors have hurt us. If I'd seen forward progress then I'd be happy. But last year was as bad as any before it, if not worse.

The Wizard Cup mirage aside we were a disgrace. I don't think we should accept either that there are players who go months without talking to Dennis one on one. There is only a small amount of players on the list these days and if Pagan can't make at least some time for each one of them, then he is making an error.

If Pagan makes a contribution by developing some of the kids then that's great, but he will go down at Carlton the same as Tony Shaw went down at Collingwood, presided over a crap portion of club history and then paved the way for his successor, we should expect more than that from a guy who was touted as one of the best in the game.

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Forgotten, but not gone

no we should expect to be realistic.

Appraise Denis
Appraise the list
Appraise the penalities
Appraise the support
Appraise team leaders

etc etc etc

last year was a poor year by a young team.

You cannot speed up the aging process, bodies take time to mature.

I'll judge Pagan at the end of 2006 and even then I am being hasty I admit it, but heck I'm an impatient sort of guy.

Realistically this list will not be old enough until 2009.

For example Thommo was asked about geelong and igf he thought they had missed their chance with their list. he thought thewir list would mature and be ripe in 2007. At that time his side would usually be the older/more experienced side and therefore should win the games that count (especially close games?).

He felt time was as important a factor as anything else.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Jim 2004 wasn't that good. We had more big losses in 2004 than we did in 2005 - look it up. We stole some wins against clubs that had off days.

I don't want to sound alarmist but we've really had 4 terrible years in a row. It is only when you take that, plus how far back we were with the other penalties, i mean, Stevens we should have got anyway, to say he makes up for missing other picks is just loss minimisation, that you can assess the whole situation.

Good post dannyboy but how can we appraise Denis given how poor our list is? Our best recruits of the past 6 or 7 years on games records is probably Houlihan and we all know how limited his game is. Yes we have hope in Walker and Russell and other young players but I cant appraise Denis yet as he has just had a to tread water to stop us going backwards any further, if that makes sense.

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Formerly: Ackland the Wonderkid / Army the Wonderkid / quivering mess / molsey / Tony Lynn Fan Club

to complicate the discussion, you have some absolute legends of the game (like Archer, Carey, Stevens, etc etc) continually state that the best coach they have had by far is Pagan. For all his flaws, Pagan is still in their eyes the best in the business.

Therefore, what do you now make of our senior list of the past 5 years? OK, perhaps history will judge the likes of Allan, Beaumont, Murphy, Lance, Fev etc as not being 'able to cope' with the stern Pagan discipline. But what about McKay and Ratten? Surely they cannot be judged as powder puffs when it comes to leadership?

Or is Pagan the type of coach who does well with teams who are travelling well? Maybe he is not as good a coach with a bunch of misfits and let's face it, we have had a few of those lately.

or maybe, just maybe Pagan walked into a culture that was screwed and set about changing that culture and along the way we had casualties, which happens all the time and those casualties are not always culprits merely loyal and set in their ways people who cannot/will not change or choose not to change (put it how you like) and therefore leave.

Carlton is not the club it was, not just the list but in every facet of this great club we were closing to denmark than Princes Park.

Denis and Collo and co have set about trying to rectify that. That means pain.

We really will not know how they have gone for some years yet. In we do twenty or more years in the wilderness then they [REDACTED] up. If we are back within ten I will praise them forever!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

What worries me about that Danny, although I definitely take your point, is that other coaches and other administrations have walked into clubs where the culture maybe isn't where it should be and turned it around without the years of misery that we have been through. Maybe other clubs have not as dire circumstance as we were in, but in 2000 I still believe we were as good as Essendon* that year, what the @#$%&! happened after that??

Look at what Wallace has been able to do at Richmond, arguably one of the worst football cultures in the league in terms of administration. Maybe last year was a flash in the pan, but i don't think so. It just concerns me that the coach has to also learn from his surroundings and adapt, one method doesn't work in all circumstances. Every time we have lost in the last few years, and not just lost, but looked like we lacked commitment, heart and general football ablility has left me upset, and i don't think I should have to put up with excuses from years ago. We won 10 games in 2004, maybe we overachieved, but that is the bare minimum we should expect from our great club, even though we are in transition.

Unfortunatley then we get back to the argument that the only way to succeed in this modern regime is to take your medicine and sit at the bottom until you accumulate enough picks to get your time at the top. Maybe I need to adjust my expectations.

PS I liked it on TBV when I said @#$%&!, it didn't come out as a whole heap of punctuation and other signs, @#$%&!.

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Forgotten, but not gone

this is where we fundamentally disagree. The year is 1999 - we were shit. But we had 5 great players at the end of their careers and we had Kouta. 2000 those players all shone, then went down and that was that.

But the question sh9iuld be who did we having coming through?

Beaumont - sorry a hack always. (AFL hack here, not me type hack). Manton - pfft. Who? What young champions were on that list? Hulme? Massie?

No it was really Whits (thank god for father/son) amd maybe fev and maybe Houla. Nothing else.

Gee i wonder why we crashed. Then we got the penalties, now we can argue for years to come about their effects, however, everyone agreed they were severe, and they would hurt us - and i think they did.

Debt. Never underestimate the crippling effect debt has had upon this club.


And for me the biggie. Long term ultra top end contracts. @#$%&! killed us!

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Disagree with you there Dannyboy about 99. We had those same five guns in 97 and 98 the difference between those years and 99 and 2000 was Hamill, Beaumont, Hulme, Lappin, Murphy, Allan, Whitnall and Campo had taken over when Sticks, Harry, Dean and Deisel retired. I know Kouta, Ratten and SOS were fantastic but you need more than a handfull of guns to have seasons like we did in 2000.

Problem with your thinking there, Game is that Murphy, and especially Campo never actually took over. There's the problem. The leadership we had with Kernahan, Diesel, Bradley, and Madden disappeared, and nothing's replaced it.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

If your gonna keep comparing every Carlton footballer to those guys you are gonna be one dissappointed fan.

Wasn't comparing anyone to anyone.

Was just making the point that since then we've had a leadership vacuum which has never been adequately or properly filled.

Bradley did honourably, as did Ratten, but never had the solid backup.

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

of course you disagree you blame pagan, i don't so we cannot agree. But of those years who want to hold dear who were the young champions and where are they now?

see solid players are just that solid, and with great players around them will do the job, Parkin understood this (as does Pagan) and with the champions he had Parkin filled the gaps with solid types. But champions grow old (or in the case of Kouta get struck down in their prime) and so for the three for four older champions you need two or three young guns coming through. Show me the young guns from 97, 98 99, 2000 coming through.


What champions did Pagan have when he arrived? <Macca at the end of his stellar career. Rats almost gone. Kouta with the knees gone. Who else?

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I don't blame Pagan for our fall from grace, that was always going to happen. I just don't think he helped the situation, in fact I think he made things worse but we've done that to death and whats done is done. I just hope supporters realize how much longer it will be till we're back now and not to expect much in the next couple of years.

About a month ago, I was having a late lunch and was sitting a few tables across from four young Brisbane Lions senior players, and one thing they were talking about was being singled out and yelled at in front of everyone else. One of them mentioned his confidence was shot to pieces at one stage last year by it. He then went on to say, the yelling and screaming would be fine if a day or two later, Leigh took you aside for a calm, one-on-one discussion.

Whilst there is still room for such antics in modern footy, I think those types of coaching methods are slowly going to be replaced by the less aggressive methods of the younger brigade, with the rant used less and less.

I think this was more where I was coming from Danny and the point Verbs makes is what I was trying to say on this thread. I'm not sure the old tried and true methods work anymore and I wonder if the days of those older style coaches (not just because they are old) is behind us. Kids are more precious these days and demand far more man management than in days gone by.

Sticks, Diesel, Ratts etc wouldn't just do what they were told though, and Parko was smart enough to realise this, he's first to say that in 95 the players ran things. Pagan apparently wants things his way entirely and I just don't think it can be done that way anymore when his way means 'flog 'em on the track' etc etc, surely there comes a day when those methods are outdated. If AFL follows trends in overseas sport (and nothing has happened in the last 20 years to suggest otherwise) then along with talent identification, personnel management will be the most important way to get the most out of a team, I'm not sure old school coaches are equipped with those tools.

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Forgotten, but not gone

Ahh yes well we'll just have to see if Pagan is inflexible. I just think its far tooe arly to tell. this club was rooted when he took over, rooted things take time to recover


I should know......


cue tommi

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

I have to admit, I was quite amazed at how opinionated about their coach the Lions players were. And these were 30 games and under players.

I still think a bake can be used effectively, but I also feel kids, once they've heard it 18 times, will more often than not roll their eyes.

But he won FOUR premierships and im sure the guys that were there with him got bakes too...

Look i know times have changed.. women get the vote and all that...

But sometimes the way youve been brought up by your mum wont take you 'There'.. sometimes when youre playing a mans game you are a man...and even though it may be easy for me to not be in that situation ... the kids must realise that every one of the guys they idolised as kids got a bake.

Im sure pagan gave Carey, Stevens, Archer a huge bake..
Im sure Mathews gave Daicos Brown and Voss just as big a bake as Campo and Kouta have received.. or any of our kids (or Brisbanes kids)..
i dont think Campo and Kouta as well as Lance can ever get their heads around that... that champions have been given just as big a bake as they have received...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

And the four Lions players? Nup! They couldn't get their heads around it either.

Get used to the future boys and girls.