Next year = defining year for those in charge

Blues2005 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:50 pm **Posts:** 2123

You'd have to think that eventually the supporters, or a lot of them anyway, will start to get fed up with losing games (if they haven't already), it's only natural. Another season of 3-5 wins or something like that next season would surely have to bring about some sort of change at the top. I know that there are reasons why we're not expected to do well but at the end of the day 4 wins is 4 wins and out of 22 games, well, it just isn't good enough. I'm a Pagan fan and I still think he's the right coach and I'll continue to support the board as well and whilst their hands have been tied in many ways, another season of four wins is going to test out that support, and I don't think I'm the only one...

TruBlueBrad · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:48 am

fevolaaaa wrote:

JackWorrall wrote:

but I think they have made good decisions so far in getting us out of the financial blackhole they found us in.

That's my issue...we've perhaps rightfully been totally concerned with the finances, but the on-field has gone to shit. It's been 3 years now since Collo and Pagan have been in charge, and we've improved but not anywhere near as much as we could've. This Whitnall trade was a chance to move forward, and instead we've just given ourselves more draft penalties

You still haven't told us what the trade was exactly

fevolaaaa · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:49 am

TruBlueBrad wrote:

fevolaaaa wrote:

JackWorrall wrote:

but I think they have made good decisions so far in getting us out of the financial blackhole they found us in.

That's my issue...we've perhaps rightfully been totally concerned with the finances, but the on-field has gone to shit. It's been 3 years now since Collo and Pagan have been in charge, and we've improved but not anywhere near as much as we could've. This Whitnall trade was a chance to move forward, and instead we've just given ourselves more draft penalties

You still haven't told us what the trade was exactly

We never got the chance to find out, Carlton in all it's wisdom never consulted Melbourne according to both parties

camel · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:10 pm

Good post Tyrants, I think it's fair enough to cast a more critical eye over proceedings.

As far as alternate presidents who is out there?

TruBlueBrad · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:47 pm

fevolaaaa wrote:

TruBlueBrad wrote:

fevolaaaa wrote:

JackWorrall wrote:

but I think they have made good decisions so far in getting us out of the financial blackhole they found us in.

That's my issue...we've perhaps rightfully been totally concerned with the finances, but the on-field has gone to shit. It's been 3 years now since Collo and Pagan have been in charge, and we've improved but not anywhere near as much as we could've. This Whitnall trade was a chance to move forward, and instead we've just given ourselves more draft penalties

You still haven't told us what the trade was exactly

We never got the chance to find out, Carlton in all it's wisdom never consulted Melbourne according to both parties

So how can you say we missed an opportunity?

Did Melbourne consult us?

Make an offer to us?

fevolaaaa · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 12:49 pm

TruBlueBrad wrote:

fevolaaaa wrote:

TruBlueBrad wrote:

fevolaaaa wrote:

JackWorrall wrote:

but I think they have made good decisions so far in getting us out of the financial blackhole they found us in.

That's my issue...we've perhaps rightfully been totally concerned with the finances, but the on-field has gone to shit. It's been 3 years now since Collo and Pagan have been in charge, and we've improved but not anywhere near as much as we could've. This Whitnall trade was a chance to move forward, and instead we've just given ourselves more draft penalties

You still haven't told us what the trade was exactly

We never got the chance to find out, Carlton in all it's wisdom never consulted Melbourne according to both parties

So how can you say we missed an opportunity?

Did Melbourne consult us?

Make an offer to us?

Melbourne declared their interest and were told Lance was 'not going anywhere' according to their football manager. They thought Carlton were playing hardball but apparently we werent

79Vintage · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am **Posts:** 1971

On field improvement in 2006, where is that coming from?

Our on field leadership group is weak.

Our list is weak.

Half a dozen youngsters maturing over one pre-season?

Football supporters that want to support a competitive team is natural. But I'll explain it this way - AFL draft & trade system = no quick fixes available=more long term pain ahead=excellent recruiting over a five to seven year period will turn this club around=three more years of finishing 13th - 16th.

Sure we need to modernise and make changes off field, that will prepare us for success but if you think this has to happen if we fail next season....start the coup now.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:09 pm

na I think people are talking about signs rather than huge leaps.

For me (though a small one I'll grant) I still hold that the Whizz Fizz cup was asuch a sign - a signal of intent. Now we need to see two or three such signs during ther season proper - just moments when you go 'ahh'.
These signs should start happening about 3 years out and then slowly increase until finals becomes an expectation. So far we have given nothing except the Whizz Fizz.

This year I expect some small but bright 'somethings'.

79Vintage · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:59 am **Posts:** 1971

dannyboy wrote:

na I think people are talking about signs rather than huge leaps.

For me (though a small one I'll grant) I still hold that the Whizz Fizz cup was asuch a sign - a signal of intent. Now we need to see two or three such signs during ther season proper - just moments when you go 'ahh'.
These signs should start happening about 3 years out and then slowly increase until finals becomes an expectation. So far we have given nothing except the Whizz Fizz.

This year I expect some small but bright 'somethings'.

I hope everyone is happy with small steps Danny, because that's all we are capable of. We all want to see resolve on the field and decisions which show resolve off the field.

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:13 pm

it doesnt have to be X number of wins

I just want to see people trying, and some competitiveness. I want to see some development into Russell, Walker etc etc... none of this in-and-out crap because "he's not ready".

Guess what. YOU PICKED HIM DENIS. HE'S READY.

I want to see Murphy get some games.

I want to see youth and energy celebrated. Even if we lose every game and we're having a dip, and we can see growth in our youngsters, I'll be happy.

I don't want to see a side full of fat, hungry, disinterested slobs who walk around with their heads up their bums.....

I WANT TO LIVE, MARGE! WON'T YOU LET ME LIVE!!!

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:18 pm

AND NO BRETT JOHNSONS IN BLUE WHILE BENTICK'S ARE IN RED!!!! :twisted:

Pagan has [REDACTED] up the list since taking it over, I think. We have more hacks on our list than Lizzie Borden had on her parents.... and many of them were recruited by Denis... and the ones there before him haven't grown at all since he's been there.

Listen Denis. You appear to be a good bloke..... but don't be a selfish arsehole and try and win for your own sake at the expence of the development of our young players.

I don't give a flying @#$%&! about Denis' win/loss ratio. If he does, then he should leave right now.

Keep Whitnall... sure. Why not. You want him: you keep him. But playing utter chaff in the firsts while our young energetic "interested" players are in the 2s is a disgrace.

At least Lance kinda deserves to be playing in the firsts. If Digby Morrell, Brett Johnson and Bannister (to name 3) play another game for Carlton, let alone remain on the list, then Denis should be put out to pasture.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:22 pm

yep, I'd even be happy with two steps back if it showed soemthing! But more of the same old same old and I'll start screaming darkly into the night!

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:24 pm

dannyboy wrote:

screaming darkly into the night!

that reminds me of that night in Bendigo, where I........

JackWorrall · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:24 pm

Pagan's junior development record is outstanding, and I think he's been doing the right thing since arriving at Carlton. I have no doubt that Simpson, Bentick et al are performing well now due to the patience Pagan has shown. Russell was clearly not ready, so why the rush? One of the reasons for the lack of progress with Davies, Livingston etc. was due to them being thrown into the deep end too early.

Our list is crap, but I think it is not as bad as when Denis took over. At least we have some young talent coming through, which I didn't think we had three years ago.

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:27 pm

you mean...it was you on the side of the road.... :oops:

Blues2005 · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:50 pm **Posts:** 2123

79Vintage wrote:

On field improvement in 2006, where is that coming from?

Our on field leadership group is weak.

Our list is weak.

Half a dozen youngsters maturing over one pre-season?

Football supporters that want to support a competitive team is natural. But I'll explain it this way - AFL draft & trade system = no quick fixes available=more long term pain ahead=excellent recruiting over a five to seven year period will turn this club around=three more years of finishing 13th - 16th.

Sure we need to modernise and make changes off field, that will prepare us for success but if you think this has to happen if we fail next season....start the coup now.

You're right, Vintage, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying.

I just reckon that another season of 4-5 wins next season, regardless of good 'signs' would have to place Denis Pagan and this board at the next election in some sort of serious strife.

I'm not expecting anything huge myself, but I won't be happy with another 4 wins, I don't see any reason why we can't do better than this season, as long as Fev stays and our kids continue to improve. I realise that we won't be very good but at the same time I won't accept it, if you know what I mean.

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:34 pm

JackWorrall wrote:

One of the reasons for the lack of progress with Davies, Livingston etc. was due to them being thrown into the deep end too early..

That is the worst argument I've ever heard, save for that Uhura was hotter than Seven-of-nine debate I had the displeasure of enduring...

"thrown in the deep end too early".... WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?? BLOODY NOTHING! POOR BABY JUDD.. THROWN INTO THE DEEP END TOO EARLY..... BOO STINKIN HOO......

Davies and Livingston are crap now because they're average players without any direction or confidence.

Pagan as a good record of developing youth... yeah, sure... when the youth you're talking about are elite talents like Carey, Stevens, Archer, etc. How does he go developing less talented players???? How would he go with the Swans list????? Somehow I doubt Denis would be holding up the cup in a swans polo shirt.....

Denis has done bugger all to help this list. It took him 2 and a half years to start giving Simpson a go... you can hardly tell me that Simpson is a behemoth now compared to last season.

Simpson is a good player who deserved his chance. Most coaches could see that.

Denis, mate, you're on notice from my point of view. We better start seeing some change in personnel, or I'll be the first person outside OO ready for a pagan-ritual

fevolaaaa · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:34 pm

The Tyrant wrote:

dannyboy wrote:

screaming darkly into the night!

that reminds me of that night in Bendigo, where I........

...was conceived :wink:

JackWorrall · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:39 pm

The Tyrant wrote:

JackWorrall wrote:

One of the reasons for the lack of progress with Davies, Livingston etc. was due to them being thrown into the deep end too early..

That is the worst argument I've ever heard, save for that Uhura was hotter than Seven-of-nine debate I had the displeasure of enduring...

"thrown in the deep end too early".... WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?? BLOODY NOTHING! POOR BABY JUDD.. THROWN INTO THE DEEP END TOO EARLY..... BOO STINKIN HOO......

Davies and Livingston are crap now because they're average players without any direction or confidence.

Pagan as a good record of developing youth... yeah, sure... when the youth you're talking about are elite talents like Carey, Stevens, Archer, etc. How does he go developing less talented players???? How would he go with the Swans list????? Somehow I doubt Denis would be holding up the cup in a swans polo shirt.....

Denis has done bugger all to help this list. It took him 2 and a half years to start giving Simpson a go... you can hardly tell me that Simpson is a behemoth now compared to last season.

Simpson is a good player who deserved his chance. Most coaches could see that.

Denis, mate, you're on notice from my point of view. We better start seeing some change in personnel, or I'll be the first person outside OO ready for a pagan-ritual

Mine is not a bad argument Tyrant, but a different perspective.

Judd played early because he was ready to play. Murphy, by reports I've seen is likely to be ready to go for round one 2006. Simpson has built up considerably since he arrived at the club.

Maybe this is a chicken and egg scenario. Maybe Carey, Archer etc. became great players because their development was handled correctly in the first place?

Maybe Livingston and Davies lack confidence and direction (as you say) because their development was not handled the right way.

The Tyrant · **Posted:** Thu Oct 06, 2005 1:47 pm

mate, I will never buy into that "before he was ready" thing unless I see solid, psych data on this phenomenon. Otherwise.. its shit

Next year = defining year for those in charge

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