Well my initial premise , was that all 3 are too good to be out of the side. Having them in the vfl as depth seems a waste. And as has been suggested, the spare ruckman rarely flourishes without the confidence that comes from being the number 1 due to injuries etc.

I may have misdescribed kreuzer as a ruck rover. More the adam goodes type of role was what i had in mind. But i do agree that our game is evolving, and it is not out of the question, that a tall person can be something other than ruck or kpp, IF they have the requisite pace endurance reflexes etc. kreuzer has shown that he is capable of being more than a ruckman. Warnock less so.

So getting back to my original premise. Trying to fit all 3 into the side. Warnock has to be our tap ruckman. That means the other two are not. Kreuzer imo is an onballer not a kpp. Hence the suggested goodes type role.

That leaves hampson. If you insist that hampson rucks, then you are delegating warnock to depth status as he has no other positional flexibility. Hence the suggestion that warnock could end up being traded. But what a waste! Look at what we got for jacobs. Without gametime and dominance in those games, what are we trading? An injury prone Average ruckman. Only carlton trade high picks for such a player.
Hampson has more flexibility than warnock, due to his pace , leap and height. But he doesnt have kreuzers ball hunting ability, agility and reflexes. So if he is locked out of the on ball division AND we decide we want to keep him as a senior player, along with warnock, what is his best position? Yes we can try him in the forward line, but then what to do with waite, casboult, rowe, mitchell?
Our defence is looking really good, with the continued performance of henderson. Jamison and laidler. But if anything, if there is a weakness to be found, it is in jamison. He is undersized against some players. Also he us injury prone. So here is a position that can sometimes find us wanting either through injury or match ups. Either way it seems we should develop options. Of course i am ignoring watson for the sake of my argument. But thats another story.

The window to trade Warnock closed last year. We've decided to invest in a player who having just turned 26 has played just 58 games. He's just had his first (nearly) full pre-season. If you look at another 206cm Carlton ruckman in Justin Madden - he finished in the top 5 in the B&F aged 27, 28 and 29. There's absolutely no doubt that Warnock, like Madden, is getting better with age.

We wish Hampson was a reliable forward. But he's not. Is he a lead-up CHF in Waite's absence? Perhaps, because we know that Casboult is better suited to being closer to goal. But can you play three in the same side? No. Kreuzer and Warnock are locks in my opinion because they hurt the opposition more. If Hampson had hands like Mark Waugh, he'd be too hard ignore...but he doesn't, so the only Mark Waugh comparison available is the older woman.

The window to trade Hampson is at seasons' end. I think he's going to need a breakout year to stay. But depending on what's out there - even if he does have a breakout year - the temptation to 'sell high' would be too great for me to ignore. He'll get his chances to impress. Depending on the match-up and/or form/injury - I envisage Hammer will play at least a dozen games.

..Warnock could be traded in two years time, there's always a market for a ruck of his height and tap ability.. ..it's just for our list, he's not good enough.. ..a primary ruckman carries a big work load, and he simply can't manage it.. ..it's part attitude, and a whole lot of durability.. ..a good ruckman needs consistency of games to fully blossom, and he's had plenty of opportunity with us and hasn't been capable of it.. ..and he's the oldest of our rucks, so if rucks need time to reach their potential, he's running out of time [26 now isnt he?], whereas we've got a few years up our sleeve still with Hammer..

..i also think that Hammer's improvement over the last couple of seasons has been more promising than Warnock's rate of improvement.. ..Warnock has given us i think reckon his best during the finals he's played for us.. ..nice yes, but over 4 yrs with the coin he's earned, he has not delivered.. ..not even close.. ..he's crap up fwd, even less useful up fwd than krooz.. ..both of them are dangerous as rucks pushing fwd, but not so much as resting up fwd, and neither as kpfs..

..Hammer is offering an option up fwd as a fwd, but as a fp, 3rd tall in the old resting ruck position, he doesn't have any kpf craft.. ..thankfully he's finally figured out that with his size and athleticism he can leap for the ball, and take chest marks if his hands are buttery..

..but the idea that knockers' tapwork is miles ahead of either krooz or hammer is false.. ..krooz is jumping like he did when he first arrived, and his jump is making him more competitive in the ruck.. ..and out of the 3 rucks he's the one with some sense of mongrel.. ..how many 'bumps' have you seen the others lay..?.. Knockers is like a sandilands lite, he can get as many taps as he likes but they're not directly proportional to our clearances..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Might of missed the boat in regards to trade value. If we go to a Cap of 80 interchange next year a second Ruckman will nearly become extinct.

Clubs will have their No.1 Ruck backed up by a rookie and maybe a mature aged Ruckman.

The other factor is that the umpires are now balling the ball up quicker around the ground to create less stoppages which is making it harder for Ruckman to get to each contest thus having less influence on contests.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

People are making too many assessments based on short stints in practice games.

Kruezer definitely looks fitter and more agile. However, he is a "smaller" Ruckman and his ability to jump and make a contest will deteriorate as he fatigues during a game and he doesn't have the body size to push other Ruckman off the contest.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

..twisting on yourself there dude.. ..firstly, season average interchange in season 2008 was around 80, plenty of teams played 2 rucks.. ..it's less about interchange rotation cap [which i believe will be more than 80], and more about number of players allowed on interchange bench.. ..going from 4 players to 3 is making it hard to carry 2 rucks, it's why a ruck that can play fwd, or a tall fwd that can pinch-hit ruck is back in vogue..

..however, i think in our instance, we could play Krooz as first ruck [majority of ruck time], and Hammer play deep fwd, and play relief ruck when Krooz takes a moment resting on bench.. .. ..Krooz is by far too good a player to not play seniors, i think everyone agree's with this.. ..but he's nowhere near as useful when playing kpf.. ..and i dont believe you rob the team of all krooz can give playing first ruck, to offer warnock an opportunity.. ..his pure rucking isnt that much better [personally i think not better at all] than krooz, and he doesnt come close to krooz's all-round game..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Is a great topic, one we've been wrestling with for a while, and an increasing quandary for the MC. All three can't play in the same side at once, maybe only one can play.

Warnock is the most restricted, probably the best tap ruckman but needs to take many more pack marks, do more bullocking work, and mark and kick some goals. At present he is not offering enough. As others have said, this is his first full preseason in a while, he may be about to explode, and when one sees him on the training track he looks a million dollars. Six foot ten ruckmen are pretty rare, he runs well, has a nice kick, and his hands look soft....outside the main kitchen.

Hampson and Kreuzer have shown something more this preseason. I've never been sold on Hammer, have always had doubts he'd make it, never been keen on the athlete turned footballer. However he's taken some big clunking marks recently, he's more than adequate at the bouncedowns, and he is throwing his weight around which I like. Hammer is only going to displace Warnock if he shows everyone he can take big pack marks or marks on the lead and kick goals. If he can't then its all over red rover. The idea of playing him key back is interersting, but I think he's not quick enough off the mark and not agile enough to cope with a fast leading and twisting forward.

Kreuzer needs to improve as well, but he has something crucial and rare that the other two don't, his in and under work as a midfielder. His marking has also improved which is important. Despite his much vaunted number 1 status he's no monty and will have to bring it to shut the gate on the other two.

I think all deserve a chance maybe even via a rotation system early in the season to show what they've got. None of them want to go down with an injury, as it might be very hard to get back.

I'd start with Warnock and Kreuzer. Hammers big chance will be if Warnock keeps playing like a girl or if Casboult or Rowe don't take the next step, especially if Waite doesn't play much this season.

Really difficult decisions. All of them need to show improvement.

Maybe Robert Walls suggestion of trying Kreuzer at CHB is plausible?

Hammer has been taking clunking marks only recently? He was doing it last year too. He is consistently underrated by carlton folk even after last year. He is literally the only ruckman we have who can jump anything worth a damn.

this from the first part of last season
[youtube]7b6igtAEfmY[/youtube]

this from 2011
[youtube]eQhirgPYjro[/youtube]

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my youtube channel tracking carlton news on television and paytv

Thanks for that Wookie. Your video contributions have made the TC site so much better.

You've convinced me.

Out Warnock In Hampson.

The question is can he do it often enough

2012 stats

Hampson (13 games)
Av kicks 4.7, HB 4.5, Disp 9.2, M 3.9, HO 18.5, Tackles 1.8, G 1.2

Warnock (5 games)
Av kicks 3.8, HB 3.2, Disp 7.0, M 1.6, HO 31.6, Tackles 2.4, G 0.0

Kreuzer (20 games)
Av kicks 7.3, HB 4.8, Disp 12.1, M 3.0, HO 22.5, Tackles 3.3, G 0.5

Injury interrupted seasons for Hampson and Warnock and Kreuzer playing injured for much of the season but even so those stats are pretty ordinary for all 3.

Hampson gets in on stats over Warnock, but slate wiped clean for start of year under MM, and team balance an important factor. They all have something to prove.

I think we'd learn more if you packaged a Shaun Hampson 'howlers' package together. Make or break year. No two ways about it.

I was going to say we need a hammer howler video.
One thing he did on the weekend sent setanta packing.
That's a no pressure preseason game.

And kisses alot of kicks and marks

I don't mind him but he has the least amount of football smarts of the three.

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In each of the last two seasons he was on fire for several weeks prior to sustaining injuries.

A full season as a forward changing in the ruck will see Hampson kick 35+ goals. His progress has been slow, but he's just about there.

With Casboult and Waite plus the smalls and resting mids we will have an unstoppable forward line. If they get reasonable supply and can convert at the AFL average our points for should be very healthy.

Yep, I agree with this assessment.

Ruck men take a long time to mature, and Warnock's no exception. On top of that, he's played relatively few games for his age. IF he can stay injury free, I believe he could dominate.

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"The old believe everything, the middle-aged suspect everything, and the young know everything." Oscar Wilde

..sure, all we have for the year so far are what we've seen on training track, intra-club matches, and now pre-season games.. ..pre-season games aren't as good a guide as real H&A matches, but still a better guide than training drills and intra-club fancies..

..fatigue will wear down all rucks, out of the 3 rucks Krooz is the only one that will really put the body into his opposite number.. ..and Warnock's extra height isn't as huge an davantage cos i don't think he truely uses all of his height to maximum advantage.. ..he rarely really jumps, his timing can be a little off, and he's not one that loves the body-work..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

The fact that there is so much discussion regarding our Ruckman just proves how all of them have under performed throughout their time at Carlton.

I just want one of them to stand up and dominate!








PS I still believe Warnock is the better option.

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#NewBlues beginning 25th August 2015

..i don't think Krooz has under-performed at all.. ..he was going great for a young ruck taking all the work from the get-go up until he did that knee.. ..showed good form upon return from the ACL [an achievement in and of itself for a kpp], and last year was good early until he tore some of the meniscus, and then he battled manfully [debatable if he ought to have even been played] through the injury for the rest of the season..

..Krooz is the youngest of the 3, has suffered the worst injury of the 3, and has played the most of the 3.. ..can't say he's under-performed at all..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Hammer has been progressing every season until injured. If he remains injury free it should be a real breakout year for him.

Casboult too with his bulk and marking power will create havoc for the opposition.

And Waite is just a bonus if and when he is fit.

For no other reason but team balance Hammer is a must with stints in the ruck as well. He has continued his improvement as a ruckman along with his forward and around the ground play and can hold his own against anyone.

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"Get ready, Teddy - you're on": Ron Barassi half time 1970 Grand Final

Yeah I reckon I can. Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see the lad blossom and fingers crossed he will, but ...
for a #1 pick ... to date he hasn't delivered.

apologies, but the pedant in me should of spoken up sooner

grammar

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