AGRO, they need to see a feasibility study on this. I don't have the figures readily available, but if the clubs (Carlton and Preston) would give me access to them, I'd do it for nothing.

But sometimes things are so transparent, they don't need evidential proof.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

I'm unsure as to how we aren't developing players in the Bullants for the roles we want them to play in the seniors? I'm also unsure how it's that different to the Carlton setup?

Run off HB, switch if you can't find anything, kick long if there's nothing else. Win the ruck, win the contested ball and pressure relentlessly in the F50. Press right up the ground and keep the ball in your half.

Much more like our footy than Teague's effort was. I mean we've been playing Casboult as a forward while we're screaming for a ruck in the Bullants. If that's not development at the expense of performance, I don't know what is.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Levi has been trialled as a pinch hitter in the ruck at VFL level, but Levi is a natural forward and if he makes it as a player - that's where he'll be used. Wait until he is fully developed before trying to turn him into the next Leigh Brown.

His knee is clearly not 100% and if you used him in the ruck against the likes of Michael Gardiner, then with his current ruck technique you would ruin him forever as a potential AFL player.

As it was, the best player on the weekend was Nick Meese. Why on earth would a player of his talent go and play for West Preston for a year?

..i'd say that if a match-up isn't working during a bullants game, player X will be moved to improve chances of winning said game.. ..however, player X might be better served gaining experience in that position even to the detriment of the team winning.. ..there will always be a conflict of interest between purely developing carlton players and winning games for the bullants.. ..a carlton ressies team would allow us to focus far more on player development, and not be caught up in winning games to keep the club afloat..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

Can I get a specific example? Watson would get moved forward after failing to get stuck in at a contested situation, but moving him forward gives him freedom to have a crack without fear of giving up a goal if it backfires.

Are there other examples?


Fair enough if his knee isn't right, but he showed more playing as a ruck this pre-season than he showed as a forward. If he can get that burst on the lead back then you're right, but I think he still needs to be looked at in both roles.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

For the life of me I cant understand why people throw up examples of Northern Bullants players.

Simple answer if they are not Carlton Main List players or Carlton Rookie Listed Players they are not an option for us in Season 2011.

Its the same situation as Hawthorn and Box Hill Hawks last year with Ed Curnow - they couldnt do anything about him till the Drafts of 2010 - they didnt choose to draft him and we did now he is a Carlton player.

So why are we talking about Meese.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

..Jimmae, all i'm saying is it might serve carlton better to have a player persevere in one position even if he's being beaten on that day for his development.. ..if it means he'll develop better moved elsewhere for that game, sure that works too.. ..but player development before team winning as a primary focus.. ..i don't think you can be a development coach and a vfl team affliate coach without there being a certain amount of conflict of interest.. ..if there's a bullants player that's better than a blues player in a given position/role, then that bullies player gets the gametime over a blues player..

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..if you can't be good, be good at it..

In principle I agree with you, but I don't think that's been an issue under Harris. Every single CFC player who was out playing this weekend either played for Carlton or the Bullants seniors.


According to Doc we'd be talking about Meese regardless because we'd be using a supp list ruckman in the VFL if we were unaffiliated.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Agree with most on here...

Our reserve team needs to mimic our senior side, be that Bullants or a stand alone team.

As someone already stated, we need to play player X in position X regardless of result so he knows his role when called to the main group.

Couldn't care less about success of the two's...

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“I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned.” ― Richard Feynman

No that is wrong even if were operating an unafilliated VFL club we could still only operate with our Main AFL list (40 or 42 whatever it is) with our "X" number of rookie list players. We wouldnt have access to the rest of our VFL listed players just because we lost AFL players with injuries etc.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

So how do Collingwood & Geelong field a squad of 22 in the VFL each week?

May I introduce to you Geelong's 2011 VFL list

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

They have VFL listed only players or invited top ups from local leagues.

_________________
"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

It may have even been an idea to put Henderson forward when Waite was subbed off Russell straight to Hall. The problem was the speed the ball came into the Dogs forward line. Thought Henderson went OK.

The difference between us and the top echelon id depth. Our top 10 players are equal to Collingwood and Gellong after that though we fall away until we hit the bottom 5 and are way behind. We still have to find some quality as well as get the likes of Curnow, Ellard (I rate him as a decent footballer) and Laidler to continue to improve.

Thornton and Houlihan are not going to be around in firsts when we next won a flag so I would not use them now.

Its all well and good to say we need a stand alone VFL side but as we've seen over the last few weeks there aren't many supporters who have the long term vision to see out a few losing seaons. There'd be all kinds of crazy things written on how crap our kids, recruiting and depth are. Already happens and we're winning.

Bring it on though I say.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

doc, why have I got a feeling they'll bring Casboult in this week.

Saad got to be worth a game this week surely

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Anyone who suggests that the Northern Bullants aren't, jumper and name aside, exactly the kind of side (but better) that our standalone seconds would be has no idea about the Northern Bullants.

They are coached by our Development Coach, for crying out loud. They haven't played a VFL listed player ahead of a Carlton listed player, and rarely play blokes out of the position they're being groomed for.

I'd wager that any Carlton listed played who has played in the Bullants seconds has done so becuase that's what is best for their development. And a good number of perfectly fine VFL players have kicked the dew off the grass this year in the seconds because Carlton-listed players have played ahead of them.

The Bullants play the Carlton brand of footy as well as they can in sometimes adverse conditions - be it weather, ground or opposition related (is playing at Sandy in a gale against extremely weak opposition that good for our development?)

In fact, because the Bullants are a strong, traditional side they have the advantage of having a decent list. Our youngsters get to play alongside quality VFL footballers like Iaccobuci, Meese, Bransgrove and McCorkell. These guys wouldn't play for a Carlton VFL side whose sole aim was development.

If every side running around in the VFL took such a short-sighted view there would be 20 rounds of football played where neither side wanted a win and then games against North Ballarat and Port Melbourne...

It is to the Northern Bullants and Carlton's credit that they can continue developing our players (see: Ellard and Touhy as two recent examples of guys who have come through the seconds and looked the goods at AFL level) and still remain competitive.

The open windswept grounds are the biggest problem. It's impossible to practice the gamestyle required to play at Etihad and the G.

Where would a stand alone Carlton reserves side play?