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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 10:57 am 
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Geoff Southby

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I hesitate to say this, but with his good form in the VFL on the weekend and our lack of options up forward - Fisher? I know Waite is coming back but Setanta has got to go and if Fisher comes back Henderson could play back in place of Thornton. So even though Thornton is gone we still have a whipping boy in the team. :thumbsup:

And I reckon some of you are unfair on Houlihan. His problem is that he looks like a better player than he actually is. He has a certain skill set which is very high but lacks the more rounded skills of other players. But he does his job every week. He is a defensive half forward and while he may not be the best player in the side he is not the worst either.

With Murphy being so heavily tagged this year, why not let Joseph spend some time in the middle. He is aggressive, fast, an accurate field kick. It would give us another mid field dimension and help our tackling rate if nothing else. I reckon he has earnt it. Give Carazzo and Armfield the tagging jobs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 11:39 am 
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Bruce Comben
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I don't know why Bower hasn't been discussed as a forward option. He's tall, big, very quick and agile with good hands and a decent kick around the field.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:22 pm 
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Rod Ashman
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I have been worried for a few weeks but the weekend confirmed it - we are simply making up the numbers folks and we are years away from being a top 4 contender, let alone a premiership one. Our list still has too many gaps and passengers and we now have a culture and mentality that is fragile and lacks the hard edge required to be successful.

I dont think we are even a top 8 side ATM

I am simply disheartened by the whole thing. It is very sobering to realise we have been trying to build this team up for SO LONG and yet we are SO FAR from having a real go at the flag.... :sad:

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Bruce Comben
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I don't think we are that far off the mark. It's a very fine line between a top side and a bottom side really. I think in a few years when Dylan Buckley is at Carlton and guys like Lucas, Robinson, Henderson, Bower, Casboult, Thouy and Davies have matured we'll be a really good side. Not to mention when the coach gets the players educated in playing proper football and fixes our structure and game style.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:41 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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Gbatman, you raise many points I've been making for years, good read and good on you.

Noexcuses, you've clearly exaggerated several points regarding individual performances. No wonder keogh likes you. :lol:

Doc is right, and Effes has mentioned it already: our defensive pressure was non-existent. To our group of attack-minded midfielders, zoning seems to mean "stand in space", rather than "mind the space". Inept in that regard, and that definitely reduces the tackle count.

EDIT: Also noexcuses, I'm pretty sure the chase you pinned on Eddie was actually by Garlett.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Bruce Comben

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jimmae wrote:

EDIT: Also noexcuses, I'm pretty sure the chase you pinned on Eddie was actually by Garlett.


I stand corrected on Eddie but i don't think I really exaggerated. Where was I off the mark? Also, we are at such a low point that can any comment on poor performances really be considered an exaggeration?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:46 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 9:43 pm
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Tackle stats

Carl 78 v Rich 59 (+19) W
Carl 53 v Bris 56 (-3) L
Carl 80 v Ess 69 (+11) L
Carl 67 v Adel 57 (+10) W
Carl 68 v Geel 55 (+13) W
Carl 59 v Coll 88 (-29) L
Carl 77 v StK 68 (+11) W
Carl 84 v Port 65 (+19) W
Carl 73 v Haw 78 (-5) L
Carl 90 v WC 68 (+22) W
Carl 90 v Melb 73 (+27) W
Carl 72 v Nth 68 (+4) L
Carl 77 v Freo 72 (+5) L
Carl 64 v Bris 71 (-7) W
Carl 42 v WB 53 (-11) L

In summary: 7 of our 8 wins have come when we've won the tackle count, the only exception was v Brions, and they were shite. So while winning the count doesn't guarantee a win (70% success rate), we can be pretty sure we ain't gonna win without doing it :smoking:


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 1:49 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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MIL wrote:
Tackle stats

Carl 78 v Rich 59 (+19) W
Carl 53 v Bris 56 (-3) L
Carl 80 v Ess 69 (+11) L
Carl 67 v Adel 57 (+10) W
Carl 68 v Geel 55 (+13) W
Carl 59 v Coll 88 (-29) L
Carl 77 v StK 68 (+11) W
Carl 84 v Port 65 (+19) W
Carl 73 v Haw 78 (-5) L
Carl 90 v WC 68 (+22) W
Carl 90 v Melb 73 (+27) W
Carl 72 v Nth 68 (+4) L
Carl 77 v Freo 72 (+5) L
Carl 64 v Bris 71 (-7) W
Carl 42 v WB 53 (-11) L

In summary: 7 of our 8 wins have come when we've won the tackle count, the only exception was v Brions, and they were shite. So while winning the count doesn't guarantee a win (70% success rate), we can be pretty sure we ain't gonna win without doing it :smoking:



Thems good stats right thar.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 2:06 pm 
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formerly BlueRob
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I could pin point 3 things that went wrong.

1. Decision Making
2. Decision Making
3. Decision Making


Oh .. 4 things

1. Decision Making
2. Decision Making
3. Decision Making
4. Skills (Lack of)


Oops 5 things

1. Decision Making
2. Decision Making
3. Decision Making
4. Skills (Lack of)
5. Heart (Lack of)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Craig Bradley

Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:36 am
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club29 wrote:
keogh wrote:
best post I have read for a long time no excuse.


Thornton and Houlihan can piss off and not come back

Its the same old same old

I walked out with the misses in timeon of the third quarter and wont be back until they finally sort this shit out whch means that

1 those players mentioned have to go. I have seen enough of these 2 blokes to know they wont be part of a premiership team. The fact that they have been at the club for so long is laughable


get a new head coach who knows what he is doing
a new President who knows what he is doing

Both are so not good enough to be in these positions
Great players heart in the right place but simply not up to it

If the MC were fair dinkum they should drop 12 players this week
Of course that wont happen but you could drop 6. That wont happen as well.

Play Ellard
He deserves a game tries his arse off. You will get 100% effort from him unlike Houlihan and Thornton who have both been cancers at this club for too long. What is the point of having a rookie on your list for 3 years for one game three years ago.
Got to give him a month at senior level. He could do no worse than the rest of the midfield with the exception of Judd

Promote Tuohy, Casboult,White for next year

Tuohy has learnt quickly.
He is super tough a strong body and is quick. He can slot in somewhere next year.

Casboult should be promoted because he can take a pack mark and is a reasonable kick. The coaches should work really hard on getting him aerobically fit during the summer break. With a proper game plan that isolates Casboult with his direct opponent he could be very handy and we desperately need a strong marking forward. He is worth the risk to be promoted

White is tough and has shown enough to me that he deserves a promotion

Thats for starters

The team is as soft as warm butter
Its been like that for !@#$%& years but worse than that its been excepted. In the new facilities there is a walkway with every player that has played 200 or more games for the club. Houlihan is likely to be up there soon. His effort like last Sunday I have seen so many times and he gets a game because he sometimes stops the opposing backman. Not good enough


I think Richmond is a great example of what we should have done 3 years ago.

They had a thorough process to get a senior coach with a few years as an assistant at successful clubs in Hawthorn and Port Adelaide who has installed a sense of toughness in the squad and a game plan that is beginning to pay dividends. Hardwick coaches the way he played and he expects nothing less from his players. Its not just about having a gun forward in Jack Riewoldt its about changing the culture of the place that has been !@#$%& for 30 years


Of course they will have bad losses because they are a young team learning. But they are on the right path.

Notice Hardwick aint playing the likes of McMahon,Morton, Polo. Players that Teflon Terry played because they had some skill.

Notice how the club acted swiftly to send a message to Daniel Connors that his behaviour in Sydney wouldnt be tolerated and he was give the arse for 8 weeks during the season unlike the wet lettuce the Carlton footy club handed out to Betts, Houlihan and Walker.


You need no further proof that something stinks down at Royal Parade than to watch that game on Sunday.

And there is the Warnock and McLean trades. All clubs have recruiting howlers but these 2 are real bad.


I feel like a trater that I wont be going to any more games until the likes of Kernahan, Ratten, Lappin, Bradley, Wiggins,Fisher, Johnson,Houlihan and Thornton leave but as a little kid said to me as we walked out of the ground with his dad

I HAVE HAD ENOUGH


Tantrum !





Call it a tantrum if it was the first time it happened.
Your narrow minded opinion deflects the real issues.


So let me give you an example
In 2007 My lovely partner and myself went to Sydney to see the Blues and Swans at the SCG. It was a great weekend except for the footy


We were in the lower deck.
10m from where Thornton lolly popped a 30 m pass to the shortest player on the field in Eddie Betts. Of course he had to stop and prop and he was a sitting duck to have his opponent punch the ball away from him.
Thornton cracked the shits towards Betts and everyone where I was sitting heard it.

Now Ratten was an assistant to that flower Pagan who for reasons best forgotten got a contract extension for winning the Wizard Cup. Thornton was not taken off . A junior player would have been . Thornton wasnt.

Now club 29 go forward 3 years and Thornton tells Simmo a guy who tries his guts out every week to jump higher to spoil the 211cm giant known as Aaron Sandilands. Two rounds later he accidently breaks Armfields nose and doesnt even go over to see how he is and leaves that task to Jamison.

That my friend is a cancer on the club. This club does not nip the problems in the bud. They ignore the problem(s) and we sink further into the abyss.

Look at Collins from Richmond who was pole axed and 6 Tigers players went to his aid.

Thats what a good coach will install.

My advice to you and a few others is grab your head from where ever its not seeing the obvious and face it that unless this club acts now we wont win a flag for a long time to come.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 5:50 pm 
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Harry Vallence
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keogh wrote:

Look at Collins from Richmond who was pole axed and 6 Tigers players went to his aid.

Thats what a good coach will install.

My advice to you and a few others is grab your head from where ever its not seeing the obvious and face it that unless this club acts now we wont win a flag for a long time to come.


Cant say I always agree with you Keogh, but I definitely do this time.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:38 pm 
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Bruce Doull
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noexcuses wrote:
jimmae wrote:

EDIT: Also noexcuses, I'm pretty sure the chase you pinned on Eddie was actually by Garlett.


I stand corrected on Eddie but i don't think I really exaggerated. Where was I off the mark? Also, we are at such a low point that can any comment on poor performances really be considered an exaggeration?

I would think that the comments about performances at either end of the ground was quite exaggerated, with the exception of Houlihan, Betts, Setanta & Jamison. It was the midfield that was the real disgrace on the day.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 6:45 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick

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gbatman wrote:
1. Midfielders must stay out of the forward 50. Ever wonder why in so many games our opposition look to have loads of space in their forward 50 and why ours appears to be flooded at the same time? It's because our Midfielders float forward instead of hanging back and trying to be an option to go sideways to between 50 and center.

If we had a Brown, Riewoldt, Franklin etc I'm sure we'd have a more open forward line.
With Setanta as the key forward we'd effectively be turning it straight over to the opposition.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:08 pm 
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John Nicholls

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Keogh, I have been wanting thornton out of the team for years. No need explain that to me.

But you cant read the last paragraph of your original post and tell me that isnt the behavior of a 2 year old. Tantrum of the highest order.Thornton style.

The tiger lost their first nine in a row. Thrashed at times. If you followed them you would have declared yourself gone until Hardwick was replaced and all their rookies were picked.

Thanks for your advice.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Garry Crane

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:39 am
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good stuff batman.

agree with a lot of your points...

what I don't get is why what may be bleeding obvious to most people contributing to this thread is not being seen by others in "power" who also watch Carlton each week !

For everything people say about Sticks as a President, I think we can all agree he knows about footy...so doesn't he see the same "rubbish" or lack of game plan development and tactical nous that we are bemoaning ????

Or is it simply easier to not have to admit that we made a mistake 3 years ago ?????


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Bruce Comben
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As good of players as Ratten, Kernahan, Harvey and Lappen were I have my doubts about their understanding of the modern game and that they have any idea on coaching and recognising what's wrong with our side. If all of us can see the problem, which to me is clear, and a whole footy club and a team of coaches can't see the problem then there are serious problems there. We might have to break up the old excarlton players club of Rattan, Bradley, Kernahan, Teague, Williams and Lappin. It's not really the way to go about things, clubs usually succeed with coaches from a good range of other clubs and coaching looks to be clearly our problem.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:33 pm 
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Bruce Comben
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I remember hearing Jason Dunstall say something along the lines of "the Hawthorn way of doing things is not the way to do things any more" and sourcing coaches with backgrounds at other clubs. They were talking about what happened when they got Alistair Clarkson who has taken Hawthorn to the Top and won a premiership.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:53 pm 
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John Nicholls

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gbatman wrote:
I remember hearing Jason Dunstall say something along the lines of "the Hawthorn way of doing things is not the way to do things any more" and sourcing coaches with backgrounds at other clubs. They were talking about what happened when they got Alistair Clarkson who has taken Hawthorn to the Top and won a premiership.


And still the Hawks fans were calling for Clarksons head 8 rounds back. Fans do that all around the world. Fans following all sorts of sports all come up with the simple thought after a rough trott " Sack the coach ! "

Uniting as team and working hard will get us out of this slump.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:31 pm 
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Mike Fitzpatrick
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gbatman wrote:
I think the low tackle count had a lot to do with a number of things. 1 is that our midfield and half forwards don't get in a position to defend when we get the ball forward, we don't block the space well enough at half forward and midfield etc to slow them up. Also we do a lot of unnecessary running in the midfield. We run too hard forward when the opposition go forward to help their backline. This is when we need to hang back, guard space and pick our men up when they come out. This way we will be getting some rest when we get it forward and will be in a position to be able to get back and help out our defence who has been doing things on their own latly and that is poor AFL footy.

When we get our midfielders running to the right places and our forwardline functioning better our whould team will improve.

Footy is all about opening up space for us and closing things up for them, we do this poorly and we need a couple of game styles up our sleeve to get this going.

All i think we need is to:
1. get the midfield positioned better so they can defend.
2. get the forwardline functioning better. Functioning as a team not just 6 individuals.
3. have a couple of different ways to play when we get the ball to half forward, for example get it in quick or hold it up and move it shortand sideways. That decision will have to be made by the players at the time.




Mate you listed some valid points but in the end they all come back to one source problem and that is the coaching staff...

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:33 pm 
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Stephen Kernahan
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Juddy&theKruezers wrote:
Mate you listed some valid points but in the end they all come back to one source problem and that is the coaching staff...


Ever played footy J&TK? I'd doubt it very much. You're a broken record.


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