To the players responsible for this current embarrassment...

maxyblue · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:44 pm

Synbad wrote:

maxyblue wrote:

hey synbad ...

listen mate .... how DARE you assume i don't understand!!!!!!!!!!!!

pull your head in!!!!!!

tell us your take on all this and ill let you know if you undersrtand or not.....

Psychology ... is an amazing thing.....
If a kid believes he must not be a square peg in a round hole to fit he will make himself round and fit what he needs to fit into.
This becomes bigger than the individual because it now is about the universe of belonging.
If the norm is to be wax your arse crack youll wax your arse crack to fit in... and if everybody is waxing their arse crax we have a nation of arse crack waxes.. and then its expected and its a cultural thing.

Like the chicks with the rings on their necks.
Or the chinese girl foot binding
Or some cultures have circumcision.. male or female...
Or bikers wearing their colours...
Or getting drunk cos you cant express any other way to show your mates that youre having a ripper time.

All of these things mean that the individual must fit in with the culture in order to be part of something.

So the individuals should not be the only source of blame.

Surely if older , wider people... Sticks Icke Ratts and Swann.. can tell us we have the youngest list in the AFL over and over again.... they can put a stop to whats going on and do not allow young players to be put in harms way.

so the blame must firstly go there... and then to the players.

Having said that the players in question also know what society expects and should be made an example of so as to short circuit the Jimmy buckley Dog Brown culture.

But the officials must also take the responsibility for the environment they are building for young men drafted from all corners of the country and world to enter.

Its a culture.... and its a culture that belongs in the past... just as Boon and Marsh and their ocker drinking culture should be locked up and put in a vault and forgotten about

If thats what Australia is .. a nation of binge drinkers .... it is a nation that clearly understands real culture.

Elite athletes and drunken behaviour is a contradiction.

Heads should roll.. players and officials .

For if you have ever wondered why were shit... and have been at the bottom as long as we have... try looking at professionalism.

We lack it...

We lack it on field and off field

But its much easier to see what happens on the field than in backrooms

i aint gonna engage in your games ... i've made my stance clear on this matter, no need to flog it endlessly ... but carry on broooo i'm all ears ...

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:59 pm

maxyblue wrote:

Synbad wrote:

maxyblue wrote:

hey synbad ...

listen mate .... how DARE you assume i don't understand!!!!!!!!!!!!

pull your head in!!!!!!

tell us your take on all this and ill let you know if you undersrtand or not.....

Psychology ... is an amazing thing.....
If a kid believes he must not be a square peg in a round hole to fit he will make himself round and fit what he needs to fit into.
This becomes bigger than the individual because it now is about the universe of belonging.
If the norm is to be wax your arse crack youll wax your arse crack to fit in... and if everybody is waxing their arse crax we have a nation of arse crack waxes.. and then its expected and its a cultural thing.

Like the chicks with the rings on their necks.
Or the chinese girl foot binding
Or some cultures have circumcision.. male or female...
Or bikers wearing their colours...
Or getting drunk cos you cant express any other way to show your mates that youre having a ripper time.

All of these things mean that the individual must fit in with the culture in order to be part of something.

So the individuals should not be the only source of blame.

Surely if older , wider people... Sticks Icke Ratts and Swann.. can tell us we have the youngest list in the AFL over and over again.... they can put a stop to whats going on and do not allow young players to be put in harms way.

so the blame must firstly go there... and then to the players.

Having said that the players in question also know what society expects and should be made an example of so as to short circuit the Jimmy buckley Dog Brown culture.

But the officials must also take the responsibility for the environment they are building for young men drafted from all corners of the country and world to enter.

Its a culture.... and its a culture that belongs in the past... just as Boon and Marsh and their ocker drinking culture should be locked up and put in a vault and forgotten about

If thats what Australia is .. a nation of binge drinkers .... it is a nation that clearly understands real culture.

Elite athletes and drunken behaviour is a contradiction.

Heads should roll.. players and officials .

For if you have ever wondered why were shit... and have been at the bottom as long as we have... try looking at professionalism.

We lack it...

We lack it on field and off field

But its much easier to see what happens on the field than in backrooms

i aint gonna engage in your games ... i've made my stance clear on this matter, no need to flog it endlessly ... but carry on broooo i'm all ears ...

Just wanted to explain culture....

and the individual

The individual resides within a culture.

The culture also resides within the individual.
But the individual does not create a culture on his own.He needs a swag of like minded individuals to join him.

Just like one man alone wont change the culture... (Judd) he needs more like himself

Anyway... you might be all ears...
you might have told us your stance

But you havent explained your stance

camel · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:08 pm

Synbad wrote:

camelboy wrote:

...GAGF!

I know we don't need another thread on this, and I apologise for setting a poor example, but our players need a massive culture shock (if you'll pardon the pun).

Somebody mentioned about speaking to the players at training and letting them know how upset most of us are. I couldn't recommend that course of action any more highly. The players need to be faced with the reality of their actions. They need to feel the full gravity of feelings from the club's supporters.

Forget the admin and management at the club, anything they do or have done is largely irrelevant. Sure, there is an appropriate course of action for the club's management to take in response to these disgraceful actions. I agree Kernahan should go, all of that...

...but, until the players themselves want to change they will have nothing more than potential.

Until they get fair dinkum and prove to themselves they they want to achieve something, they will be nothing. Nothing.

Sure we can blame players... for club culture.
But they walked into the club culture... it was there before thwy came to the club.. and its promoted from the top .

Get with the program.. were getting the Carlton swagger back.... Ratts wanted the players to enjoy being part of Carlton...
Personally the swagger comes with winning games and premierships.. it was created by the great men of the Carlton footy club... and it was their hard work that gave Ratts and Sticks the Carlton swagger....
The swagger came with great deeds.. it wasnt something artificial that you can just switch on ... and we get it again when we become a great side that has forged out impressive stats.

At the moment.. Ratts and Sticks and all the unprofessional individuals around the club havent brought us is the Carlton Stagger...

thanks boys!!

"Were Carlton !@#$%& the rest!!"

:beer:

Yep, fair point. Unfortunately.

maxyblue · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:11 pm

synners maaaate, you never give up ... BORING!!!

you may actually find i fundamentally agree but i'm not interested in engaging in chest-thumping "i understand more than you" crap ...

as i said, i've stated my position and don't feel the need to subject it all and sundry ad nauseum ... carry on and please desist from quoting or referencing me cos i just don't care about your broken record modus operandi ...

i can easily fill in gaps in person if you like just like i did with you a few years ago at rhys-jones' pub when you again went off on one of your myriad of tangents ...

btw, you owe me a pack of ciggies ... :smoking:

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:17 pm

maxyblue wrote:

synners maaaate, you never give up ... BORING!!!

you may actually find i fundamentally agree but i'm not interested in engaging in chest-thumping "i understand more than you" crap ...

as i said, i've stated my position and don't feel the need to subject it all and sundry ad nauseum ... carry on and please desist from quoting or referencing me cos i just don't care about your broken record modus operandi ...

i can easily fill in gaps in person if you like just like i did with you a few years ago at rhys-jones' pub when you again went off on one of your myriad of tangents ...

btw, you owe me a pack of ciggies ... :smoking:

i dont remember that..... but i do remember the night....

if you ever make a bet make sure you get it in writing.....

Springsteen · **Joined:** Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:08 pm **Posts:** 813

round 1 2010 when they run out on the field in from of 80,000+ who will give a sh it what they did in December 09.

Synbad · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:29 pm

Springsteen wrote:

round 1 2010 when they run out on the field in from of 80,000+ who will give a sh it what they did in December 09.

You know.... we spend our whole lives waiting for a date to come up... or reminiscing the past.. and not addressing the situation that is the present.
So were either escaping into the future or living in the past and the seconds of this moment waste away .. and next thing u know youre dead...!!!

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:46 pm

sadly, until the top tier at the club understands how can we expect the senior players to understand, and if not the senior then how the middle tier players and then the first year players, and then the kids...

40 or more on the boat, some already turning up pissed, the players repeatedly warned, the boat cruise halted. This is not about some individual players. Yes they acted like flower - its the very reason why you need a strong culture.

As for media frenzy

the media will always have a frenzy if you run bleeding into the shadows...

if only Carlton would not run.

Would hold a conference (with the players involved) and get it out there.

I do not know how many times I argue in my life that secrets are the worst mistake of all, that things must be dragged into the open.

But no, not at Carlton.

verbs · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:50 pm

Sheesh we're a hysterical bunch in here these days. Seems the MO of someone has had some impact. :lol:

GAL

dannyboy · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:53 pm

we just have different opinions verbs.

Not really that worried about the players except that it hurts the image

I do not like that report about the new kid being chained to a senior player though, and then drinking himself stupid.

We have moved on from accepting that as normal practise at the workplace

verbs · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:00 pm

Can't quote myself verbatim, but in the past I have said on here, many players from many clubs would be doing things that make our toes curl every day of the week.

Really?

Nah, of course not. Aside from Carlton, they're all Saints.

Glad I've got 17 days off work. Hopefully by the time I go back it will all have blown over and I won't get teased any more. Oh the shame. The shame.

:oops:

club29 · **Posted:** Thu Dec 24, 2009 10:11 pm

Spend a saturday night in adelaide and you will see first hand what the Crows and Power get up to and the Crows are meant to be ultra professional. The problems the blues are facing now are problems with the whole league. The fish rots at the head and Demetriou should pay. He has created this monster. He wore a mullet back in the eighties along with Eddie Mc and Sticks. He also got pissed a fair bit. Bogan of the highest order....must pay.

Players at carlton should be held soley responsible for this and should be made to pay. I have a feeling they will be.

Springsteen · **Joined:** Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:08 pm **Posts:** 813

Synbad wrote:

Springsteen wrote:

round 1 2010 when they run out on the field in from of 80,000+ who will give a sh it what they did in December 09.

You know.... we spend our whole lives waiting for a date to come up... or reminiscing the past.. and not addressing the situation that is the present.
So were either escaping into the future or living in the past and the seconds of this moment waste away .. and next thing u know youre dead...!!!

what u say is true,however i live life for the day and live life well and dontw orry to much about the past things in my life but try and secure my future so i can live well today and tomorrow, i certainly dont worry to much about these things i have no real control over. i do look forward to round 1

Mark J · **Posted:** Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:07 pm

Look there's no need to get all deep and meaningful, or to analyse everthing.......we've just got a bunch of unprofessional flower, who think their shit don't stink playing for our club. That's all. :thumbsup:

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

I'm all for telling each and every player, from the newest rookie, to Judd, that we as supporters are embarrassed, disgusted, and dismayed by the current generation of players who represent our great club.

Even if ones who "weren't involved" (if that's really at all possible) get that message, then they might actually start speaking up and helping stop their teammates embarrassing the club and themselves.

It's a proven technique of group discipline, from primary school through to the military, to punish an entire group for the actions of one or a few. Very soon, that group, sick of being punished for others' misdeeds, will then enforce discipline within itself.

I can tell you that if I were there, I'd definitely be at training, telling any player how disappointed, embarrassed and disgusted I was with the actions of a few players.

Taff · **Posted:** Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:50 am

Quote:

It's a proven technique of group discipline, from primary school through to the military, to punish an entire group for the actions of one or a few. Very soon, that group, sick of being punished for others' misdeeds, will then enforce discipline within itself.

My experience of working with teams has proven that this approach has is problems - primarily that why should the rest suffer due to the behaviour of a few. My approach has always been to encourage, support and reinforce the desired behaviour and rip into the offenders individually (in private) who have been "naughty" boys and not followed team rules.

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

Taff wrote:

Quote:

It's a proven technique of group discipline, from primary school through to the military, to punish an entire group for the actions of one or a few. Very soon, that group, sick of being punished for others' misdeeds, will then enforce discipline within itself.

My experience of working with teams has proven that this approach has is problems - primarily that why should the rest suffer due to the behaviour of a few. My approach has always been to encourage, support and reinforce the desired behaviour and rip into the offenders individually (in private) who have been "naughty" boys and not followed team rules.

I'm not saying that the technique is foolproof, but the point is that you have to empower the quiet and junior ones, the ones who aren't causing problems for the rest, to speak up and stop the trouble-makers from causing the problems happening.

When you say "why should the rest suffer due to the behaviour of a few", you're punishing the trouble makers for the problems, and partially punishing the others for not stopping them. the "innocent" ones aren't being punished for nothing.

I believe a combination of the harder line as I outlined it, and your method is what will reap results.

Taff · **Posted:** Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:10 am

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

Taff wrote:

Quote:

It's a proven technique of group discipline, from primary school through to the military, to punish an entire group for the actions of one or a few. Very soon, that group, sick of being punished for others' misdeeds, will then enforce discipline within itself.

My experience of working with teams has proven that this approach has is problems - primarily that why should the rest suffer due to the behaviour of a few. My approach has always been to encourage, support and reinforce the desired behaviour and rip into the offenders individually (in private) who have been "naughty" boys and not followed team rules.

I'm not saying that the technique is foolproof, but the point is that you have to empower the quiet and junior ones, the ones who aren't causing problems for the rest, to speak up and stop the trouble-makers from causing the problems happening.

When you say "why should the rest suffer due to the behaviour of a few", you're punishing the trouble makers for the problems, and partially punishing the others for not stopping them. the "innocent" ones aren't being punished for nothing.

I believe a combination of the harder line as I outlined it, and your method is what will reap results.

It depends on the structures you have in place. The critical factor here is leadership. What ever frameworks are in place need to be understood by all with the consequences of following and not following these framework clearly understood as well. Ideally you have leadership density where all have the capacity to be involved. I'd be very interested to know what parameters are of the current group working with our club.

Kaptain Kouta · **Joined:** Mon Feb 28, 2005 12:41 pm **Posts:** 63509

Agree entirely, Taff.

Taff · **Posted:** Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:28 am

Kaptain Kouta wrote:

Agree entirely, Taff.

Great minds KK :wink:

To the players responsible for this current embarrassment...

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