Tanking sends the wrong message to your young players....it goes against the grain of why we play.......we play to win and finish where we finish and make our plans from there...we might have our problems but tanking is selling you dignity out the door and I reckon all those past champs who did it the right way who came to PP today are owed more than that...

Ok so if we win some games and finish 3rd last we do a Geelong, but if we finish last we hopefully get 1, 2 and 1 psd.

All I want is for us to get out of where we are. If this involves more pain but for long term gain, then so be it. I Just want to see more talant in the side.

I dont want us to be in the football twighlight zone peaking at 9. If a wooden spoon is bad for mambership, then finishing between 12th and 9th over a number of years, never showing an ablility to rise above this would be just as bad over time.

We havent got the players right now. As somelone said on one of the footy programs - we sorely need a decent injection of talent. this sticks out like dogs genitals.

Only way to get a decent dose of talent is to finish low down- as bad as others think the system is, we are stuck with it.

Actually, I think that better on field leadership would help a lot too.

So many basic mistakes today.

Look at the players expressions going into the race in the pre season comp and look at those expressions today. they look like dazed and defeated me who are rudderless.. I know that they need to improve skills and everything, but in a way I feel sorry for them, because we do need more on field leadership. Even if we are down, a good on field general would help create the sprirt and attitude needed in times of football adversity.

Kouta is exemplary, but he can only do so much and I think he is a good captain, but we need a leader that will marchall his troops more.

Carey did this a lot at North.

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My Blue Heaven

Here's the weird bit, Tap:

Supporters LOVE finishing down the arse-end with a priority pick. Having picks 1 and 3, or 2 and 4 gets the supporter-base salivating. Then they get pumped up over the all the new kids, and maybe the gun uncontracted recruit...

It's a strange world we live in. But I firmly believe that we'd get more members for season 2006 if we finished stone motherless last this year on 4.5 wins, than if we limped to 6 or 7 wins and snared 14th spot.

Remember how excited we all were at the prospect of getting Goddard and Wells?

And looking back, aren't we glad we didn't get Goddard? I know I am...

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

Get rid of Pagan!!! Some of you people are crazy! Stop and have another rethink about that statement.

He is a very smart individual who’s thinking of the game is still of an extremely high level. His determination to see things through is second to none and his passion towards the Carlton footy club is very strong.

Pagan knows what is required to get this footy club back into respectable fashion, and be it difficult in times of trouble, we must have faith in him.

Some posters are on the mark, Macfart and JohnM. We need to look at the reality of the situation we are in and perhaps look ahead to next year. We need an injection of talent. We have a huge imbalance in the team in that area and some hard thought decisions need to be made.

On today's reflections, we have a handful of players carrying this team. Perhaps certain players are thinking of seeing out their careers elsewhere. And I don't blame them. Sometimes when you have given your all for the team, you need to start thinking of yourself. Can your input be of greater asset to a different environment?

For this club to go forward, some big decisions need to be made. It might be a bitter pill to swallow at first, however down the path, it might end up being the right one.

One thing is for certain though; we have the right man holding the reins at present. And the ride which he is controlling may be rocky and appear to have little light at the end, however he is in for the long run and so must we all be at this time of great unrest and uncertainty.

Pagan is good but I think his gameplan has serious flaws, especially if you don't have Wayne Carey in your team.

The blind blazing/bombing into the forward line is where we so often fall down.

Seriously everyone, tanking is not in our vocabularily, we are simply not good enough to win games let alone tank the result.

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Mjonc signing off at 8888

Cant believe what I´m reading ... the idea of sacking Pagan is about the most moronic piece of rubbish I´ve seen written here. The only thing Pagan has done wrong so far was to last year take a team that should have come last based on list quality to 10 wins ... he is a champion coach and capable of taking a mid-range list to the GF. Please, let´s not get carried away here.

14th, 15th or 16th ... with a priority. There´s no other way back for us. I dont want to spend the next 10 years like Geelong in no-mans land.

I second that!!

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And so while others miserably pledge themselves to the pursuit of ambition and brief power, I will be stretched out in the shade, singing.

I third it!

Even if we fall to the levels of most other Victorian clubs, and Pagan fails during this contract and his next, we will still have a pre-season premiership cup to our name.

Fans, lovers of Carlton, it takes a very long time to win premierships. WE've been spoiled. Imagine being a Doggies fan, or a Tigers fan, up & down, but mostly down. We have suffered big time from poor list management post our golden era (where we should have won more premierships, but thats another point) in the 1990's, and shocking draft penalties. It will take time, give them time. Is this his third year only? 3 years to take the worst list in the comp to the 8? C'mon, have long-term faith, please.

As for these repeated bombing comments, until our foot skills improvem and our leading improves, we will see some kicking to large packs. What should happen in those packs is a punch to a roving player, thus the importance of Betts, and Davies when he is in. What we have to have is no outmarking, which we saw a bit of yesterday. This is why I think Setanta will make his way in the team over the next year, he will make sure his hand gets on it. Until we play to our strengths, and ge Fevola on the lead the entire time, we're going to see these packs.