But it is Danny.
Crowds are huge, TV rights money is huge, memberships are at record levels.
The game is healthy according to all relevant indicators.

You werent writing this when Carlton was winning the Wizzer Cup.
I suspect you are pissed off with the state of the Carlton Football Club.
So am I.
However, as much as I hate Demetriou, our stubborness and ignorance placed us in any shit we are in.

The kids of today cannot be compared to us.
They are taught that involvement is important, success is secondary.
The desire to win is frowned upon.
When we were kids, the desire to win was admirable.
They rarely go down the park and kick with their mates.
They play nintendo or play the plethora of sports that werent about when we were kids.

The game is healthy Danny, its just not the game we grew up with and loved.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

I'm with Blue Vain on this one....we are down but its not the system's fault for the first time in years the draft is taking effect.....no standout teams with about 4-6 teams a chance to win the flag....thats what the draft is about.
We cheated the system , didnt embrace the u18 comp and tried short cuts to get back up the ladder....ditto to Collingwood and Essendon*.

Geelong rebuilt from the bottom up...employed Brian Cook....got the money flowing again..you read the Brian Cook story and he is one smart operator. They did their homework when the draft picks fell their way and chose well with players like Kelly, Bartel, Corey etc..Corey and Enright were not fancied players by all clubs....

The passion of the game is still there...its just that some of the former heavyweight clubs and their legions of supporters are looking for a quick
fix...I will say though the competition is weighted slightly to the interstate clubs with concessions etc and the Vic clubs have to fight harder than they did....its going to take hardwork and patience.....not changing rules, not about tanking games etc....you play kids on mass you will also lose a lot of games...Collingwood know this and are aiming at draft picks...its the clean way of tanking with the out clause" we playing the kids" and rebuilding....
Did we actually think we were going to win a flag with a team of discards and some fading overpaid stars?

Hate to sound like Deano's "grapes".... BUT...as my yaya would say
"skata"

who really gives a sh*& about the "national competition" NOT the AFL. All these decisions are based on some bizarre corporate logic about what the footy league should be???
"I have a good idea - let's put it on the butchers paper and then spend millions of dollars over a 5 year plan to make it happen."...to only never accept that it's not a good idea

Left field but - WATCH YOUR ARSE AFL...the mustard covered carrot could be arriving anytime soon...*


Brisbane have dominated for 5 years and go to QLD and have a GOOD HARD LOOK...AFL! It's been a waste of money......Sydney too!...Take the subsidies, the support, the crap you've poured into marketting and now the money you have to pour in to fix the stuff up of not televising onto southern NSW and southern QLD...which WERE good AFL areas....and you'll find that the achievement is nought!

So what's happened....
State of Origin..stuffed up
Good AFL areas in NSW ...from Griffith to the coast...stuffed up
No Tassie team, No NT team - STUPID!
No penetration into the Sydney or Brisbane market....yes we know its' the "biggest" market...but what does that mean? How many meat pies do we sell into China....Deano ...new mantra..."China - pies"
LAst year season opener..Blues and bombers playing away ..no free to air...worse croeds and second worse ratings for any openeing weekend - or the other way around).
This year Carlton, Rich, Coll, Ess all in Melb in the opener. Second best attendances and third (I think) best ratings for an opener.




*OK - what is it...here's an analogy....
Get 4 Blokes...the biggest meanest fighters...treat them like sh&t, take their money, and never listen to anythging they say.

Then go and pick a fight with another big mean bast@rd...using these four as your prime back up.
Back the mean bast@rd into a corner as much as possible...so he's got no alternative but to fight....oh and make sure he's a realy good friend of one of the guys you're going into the fight with. At the same time for extra back up....make sure you've given lots of support ...no to the guys that you go into the fight with...(treat them like sh*t- remember!)...but to the guys in the other bar at the pub who couldn't care less if you live or die.

Okay...now your ready...get into the mean bast@rd... all guns blazing...should be no problems

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

but they do play kick to kick, all the time. they do want to love this game, just as I did, but factors are telling them not to invest in it.

As for the indicators, some points here, crowds should be up but what about crowds as percentage of population? How does it stack up then?
As for the money, the ,more it enters the more we must sell of this game to keep it/increase it. We've sold off suburban football, we've sold off rough play, we're close to selling off traditional jumpers, what else must we sell to keep the money coming in?

I wrote this stuff last year and the year before because, like now, the whispers started, the 'let's lose to win' mentality surfaced. Do you honestly think its good for a sport to encourage a mindset that losing is the best way forward? Do you think this is a sane system?

Yes Carlton must use this sytem while it is in place, I accept and understand it, but do you think it is sane?

Am I pissed off at Carlton's plight? Not so much, in fact I was worried after the Roos game that we might have to endure a really, really bad year, it is not this club's plight that worries me. it is that everytime a club falters it becomes obvious the best way forward is back and I cannot foer the life of me make any sense of a system that tries to force me to think that way.

Sport is not society, it is something far more primordal. It belongs in the stem system not in the neo-cortex. Sprt must be ruthless underneath the fairness according to set rules of play.

Where is it ruthless now? It isn't. The rules just ask you to plod along for a while and talent will come your way. It makes each and every supporter evaluate their club's chances and then diminish or increase emotional involvement depending on that evaluation.

Poor year - don't worry, draft picks (and now we have Synbad correctly pointing out that sponsors etc are probably more excited wihne you finish last to finishing say 5th). Is this not insane?

Should we be advocating a sport that is not about winning or maintianing a healthy win/loss ration, or always fighting it out for a spot in the finals, or trying desperately to knock off a team far superiuor to yours but that you catch napping? Should we really advocate a sport that tells us to lose is to win?


I truly do not believe this is sour grapes BV, I talk football with lots and lots of people, most are not Carlton supporters. All seem to believe clubs need to be shit for three years before getting better. Sorry but this is madness for me.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

Agree with that. It's sold its soul for the dollar. Their manipulation of EVERYTHING has gone to far imo.

There's only one guy who would take them on....he did, we lost. You can't win.

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"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent." Qui-Gon Jinn 15-05-2005

"there’s more chance of me becoming the full forward for the [Western Bulldogs] than there is of any change in the Labor Party." Julia Gillard 18-05-2010

My preference is for Carlton to win every time I go to the football. Unfortunately, when it becomes apparent that your club is not within a bulls roar of the elite teams in the competition and the quickest fix to your plight is to get two early picks and an early PSD pick, supporters start to take comfort in the fact that each loss takes you a step closer too 3 class players very quickly.
Just ask any Richmond supporter how they are feeling about their team at the moment.

Danny Boy I completely agree with you but I don't think the clubs fully make use of the rookie draft. Correct me if i am wrong but I dont think that Bentick and Carazzo cost us draft picks. so my question is why wasn't Tambling Frankiln and Roughead on our rookie list

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If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

I think the three players you mentioned were taken a little earlier than the rookie draft

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Richard Pratt - A Carlton legend.

Deano what i was trying to say was that Bentick and Carrazzo were elevated to our list before the draft took place. It would be the same this year if we decided to elevate Carlos .he wouldn't actually enter the draft.

_________________
If you allow the Government to change the Laws in an emergency
They will create an Emergency to change the Laws

Dannyboy, I share your frustration, but I must admit that if we had gotten rid of Elliott earlier we wouldn't have been in such a bad mess.

Every year from about 96 onwards i was hoping that someone would challenge Elliott for the presidency and every time he won unchallenged.
He was a disgrace and not an accurate representation of the Carlton Football Club.

The system has numerous weaknesses - but i don't want it to change until we get all the priority picks that melbourne and st kilda and others have picked up.

Richmond were a rabble last year - now look at them... with a new coach and a whole lot of priority picks.

Hawthorn are the team to really watch - they play an attractive brand of footy and will be genuine contenders i think.

Carlton in 2005 don't even deserve the title of being a rabble - that is being too nice. Even a rabble would be humiliated by the comparison of what Carlton are offering up right now. even without bruce, neitz etc i would expect melbourne to beat carlton by at least 50 points.

regarding going to soccer - never. that is a girl's game. i may not watch the afl if carlton keep losing, but there is always local footy.

Sydney Blue,

Carrazzo and Bentick did not get drafted in the national draft because all 16 clubs did not think they were worthy of being drafted.
Carazzo was rookie listed by Geelong when he did not get drafted. They dumped him and then we rookie listed him. Bentick missed out on selection in the national draft and then we rookie listed him.

Just as a side note re arguments. can we attempt to tackle the arguments and refrain from questioning the motives. none of us are mind readers, questioning motives is an AFL/Howard tool that means you don't have to address the arguments at all.

Please accept I do as much soul searching about my motives as i possibly can and why I am confident then i shall proceed with an argument over several days - as opposed to some of my 1 off drunken rants ( ).

I think are all falling into the trap of playing the man (motives0 as oppossed to the ball (ideas).

And before anyone gets upset, I am not directing this at anyone (except perhaps myself) its just something that came to me as i sat pondering this whole predicament.

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This type of slight is alien in the more cultured part of the world - Walsh. Its up there with mad dogs, Englishmen and the midday sun!

As I stated in another thread, the dilemma we are facing right now basically boils down to a choice between your Heart or your Head. Being the pragmatic person that I am, my head will usually always win out. Hence the reason why I advocate going for the picks.

Am I happy about this? Not a chance in hell!! I love that I have such a strong emotional attachment to my club and I have so much passion for anything Navy Blue. I want to see my team win every game! But the way the game is now where every club has to go through a cycle and must wait their turn before the ultimate success, the AFL has succeeded in driving a lot of the emotion out of the game.

I agree with you danny. The system is [REDACTED]! And the sooner they fix it and get rid of the pot at the end of the rainbow that is rewarded to clubs that finish near the bottom, the better our game will be. I hate that our game has turned into a homogenised competition that has to follow a certain formula. The game is in big trouble if things dont change!!

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When Dick became President, it was as if everyone at Carlton came out of the hailstorm and into the sunshine - Stephen Kernahan

YARRAN!!





.

Danny I agree that the whole thing is wrong that crap football is rewarded.

However at a junior level in Sydney the AFL is doing a great job in getting kis to play footy. On Sat our game was delayed and hour because of the juniors running over. It was great also that my fiance saw this as there were a shit load of girls playing and hopefully well get her daughter involved in a few years.

At a senior level they are doing a shitous job. The standard of umpiring is a disgrace as is the support you receive from the AFL. Its a shame becuase most of the kids stop playing when they leave junior footy. But at least they have been indoctinated into our great game.

It doesnt help us as most of these kids will become Swans supporters but for those who dont us lying down and playing dead wont win any fans.

Im proud of our club. I dont for one minute think we were alone in cheating the cap. Business get audited by the Govt all the time and get away with cheating the system. Its only when there really are out to get you they will do so.
I agree with other sentiments here that I would rather die on my feet than be the AFLs bitch.

For me sport has to have an emotional investment. I have to care about what is happening, who is playing. For me Carlton has been a part of my life for nearly forty years. I have ridden the highs and lows. While we have had a lot of success, the actual winning and losing has been secondary as I cheered on the team week in, week out. Even during the horror years of 02 and 03 when we were abysmal I still went every week because I cared and I felt a real loyalty to the club. But now I feel a little different, if we have have to 'lose to win' then why should I bother going to watch a team going through the motions, not really trying, all to get a couple of draft picks. If there is no emotional involvement from the team why should I stay emotionally involved? If there is no committment from the team, why should I stay committed? Supporting a team is like being in a relationship and sometimes relationships end.

My local footy team is always after new supporters and maybe sitting on the bonnet of my car having a beer and pie while cheering on my 'boys' is where I will be happiest.

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A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty" -Winston Churchill

L.M 35-06

My kid's team is currently sitting 5 wins 0 losses - so its working for me.

Ron Evans - please note the pies are only $2.50 (free sauce).

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Crowds are up at the local footy BM...no doubt that's something to do with it!

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“Every single element of the Club has to be the best in the league, meticulously and methodically, and only by doing this will we be elite and challenge for number 17.”
Greg Lee

Yeah i've been going to a few TAC matches latley and i gotta say, fantastic footy to watch.
Since last year, i've kinda grown a soft spot for Murry (who are having a blinder at the moment!)

And of course, i still get down to watch the Bullants as often as i can.

I may have misinterperated Dannyboy's stance on this issue.
The way I read it was not complaining of the penalties we got or the like.
It was more the way we looking to cope with our current dilema.
When I say we I mean we are no different than any other club.
To rise first we must encourage mediocrity and as Dannyboy alluded to this is not how Carlton has ever faced it's problems.
The idea of professional footballers, especially those wearing a Carlton jumper not giving their all to fight for their team does not sit well with me.
To suggest that we should milk games is a sad inditment on Australian Football.
I too am heavily involved with childrens sport and despite understanding the reasoning behind noncompetitveness in juniours I thoroughly diagree with it. It's not always about winning, but getting the best from yourself and your team.
Regards Pedro.