Can I please ask a question - should we hold onto the PP, does that mean that we have access to this Kruzer person everyone is talking about?

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

Based on previous posts, perhaps these should be the options.

Play the team most likely to win every week, try to get a few wins.
or
Play the team most likely to bring us success in the future, and see what happens
or
Play to lose regardless of anything else.

There are points to consider though, in regard to player confidence. Throwing people in the deep end isn't a good way to start their career.

If there is anyone voting for option three, you should rethink your views.

We werent thinking that way after the Port and Bulldogs wins! Geez you people are so fickle and have long memories..

I can assure you its the coach thats @#$%&! us up! How long are we gonna blame the players for?? Are we honestly gonna point the finger at the likes of Simmo, Fisher, Murphy, Waite, Scotland, Thornton, Fevola, Houlihan, Gibbs, O'Hailpin, Kennedy, Lappin etc.. and blame them for our record on the board..

Face it, the players dont want to play for Pagan!! Despite the talent of these players, were not getting the wins of the board, due to concentration lapses, confidence issues and a dysfunctional gameplan..

Talent stocks are certainly OK! I can assure you with a new coach you will see a marked improvement in a lot of players in particular Kennedy, Thornton, Russell.. even Gibbs, Waite etc..

Extra year of development, 10 wins next year is not out of the question.. We will be getting a top 3 Gun young kid regardless..

If it turns out that way then so be it.. But besides from a shithouse coach, the playing list is OK.. Just how much do we REALLY need a PP!!

I'm telling you our coach is terrible!! Someone like a John Worsfold would improve this club ten fold! Quit making excuses every flower year about the damn PP!

Some of you guys really shit me with this defeatist crap attitude! NYTDOG couldnt have said it better in previous weeks..

Our supporters are amongst the most fickle in the AFL...

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

4 wins with an OK list (yes not great) would be flower pathetic.. Ask yourself this, what would we have made of that at the start of the year!

Quit @#$%&! accepting mediocrity you guys!!

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Corinthians 9:6- 8

Well pick one and pick 3 are better going forward than pick 4 alone.
Now having said that we have no exuses to start an upward climb.. with sojme development and i mean real development of kids.. be a neew coach and staffers .. with better facilities and a more scientific approach to the game and preparation.. we would be forming a platform of a sustained attack for ultimate glory...
Voss should be in the box seat to turn this club right around over the coming years and turn us into a REAL FORCE!

Krezer AND a Cotchin or an Ebert type would be great.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Well, if we finish the year on 4 wins, we'd have pick #1 for the next draft, so it would at least be the club's decision to take Kreuzer or not.

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Yes. Obviously.



Agreed. But 2/3rds of our lists IS kids - surely there's enough there to develop already. And if they turn out to not be up to it - well, shit happens.



Staying out of the coach thing because I don't have an opinion.



Similarly I'd be happy with the OR option and watching Gibbs, Grigg, Hampson, Kennedy etc grow into their bodies and starting to play the football we deafted them for.

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Cer 'ch 'n alluog Blues

Yeah but the difference with someone like Kreuzer is he will be a no brainer... like Gibbs and Murphy.... i dont think Grigg and Hampson are without question marks ...

So you want as much low risk as possible.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The coach is terrible but the list isnt good enough.......we need more A grade talent to compete with the better clubs and challenge for premeirships down the track.
A player like Kruezer would really compliment players like Murphy, Gibbs etc.....they dont come along that often. with his abilities.
We need that Priority Pick and another decent pick to ensure we get the best A grade talent otherwise you can look forward to some real hammerings over the next decade...The other clubs are not standing still waiting for us to get back up the ladder. Teams like Collingwood/Essendon* wouldnt think twice about manipulating wins/losses to get the best draft.picks....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Id like to know how No1 Blue comes the conclusion its just Pagan and we have a list thats good enough to be good enough.
Its a marriage of ythe two.
Weve traded badly.. recruited badly and the list has TOO MANY holes in that need to be fixed before you can be fairdinkum and say its good enough.

List management is part of the reason were in the shits.

There are too many ruckmen who are not good enough being tried because were desperate for a ruckman because we havent planned for a ruckman.
We lack runners and we lack clean footballers... footballers that handle the ball cleanly and use it well.

Were still trying to conjure up a list thats going to be good enough.. dont kid yourself.

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I'm not sure if anyone yet has made the point that Swann was the CEO of Collingwood when they went in for their obvious tank in '04. He obviously supported the strategy then.

Roll on to '07 and we drop Lance indefinately, suspend Fev for a game that we were a real danger to win, and then drop our only ruckman without replacing him. You can argue that Ackland was dropped on form, but to not replace him with a Jacobs, Hampson or McLaren to support Setanta has got to start a few questions.

I think the official mantra for the rest of '07 will be 'development of youth for the future' and based on that I actually think Pagan stands a good chance of coaching the remaining 8 games. That to me is the indicator from here - if we are serious about winning games and building for the future, you would give 7 or 8 rounds of the season to Ratten as caretaker to see what he could do.

You'd also renegotiate his contract before he got the chance to have an 'option' on his services for three years as senior coach until the end of September. That way we can trial him risk free and not have to worry about getting offered a contract by another club (eg Freo or melbourne) until we've had time to properly analyse his performances. However, if this approach comes with the risk that we might win a couple we otherwise might not.

So Pagan becomes our KPI. If he's replaced in the next couple of weeks, we are more worried about development than the PP, if not, then we are trying to 'manouevre' - better word than tank - for the PP. So if we are thumped by Sydney on the weekend, and you're an advocate of tanking, then don't be upset if there is not media conference next week

Good point Steve, why is it the same posters who want us to tank, also want us to sack Pagan straight away?

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Oompa loompa doompety dee
If you are wise you'll listen to me

Pagan coaches for himself.. not for the club.
Griggs game time????

If Grigg stayed on hed be getting valuable minutes under his belt for next year.. but hes not a match winner.,

Pagan is a selfish coach.... as well as inept.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Im prepared to sacrifice 8 games of development and get the Priority Pick...Pagan can see out the season, he is the man for this job.
A new coach might get a honeymoon win and cost us Kruezer....

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

does anyone think we have a choice about tanking or not tanking? We are crap - we don't have a choice, but next year and the year after we do - hey GAVROMAN start a poll on whether we should tank next year and the year after........then as we get closer to the end of next season start another one to see if people 'agreed' with you all along..........

Who wants to tank next year? Don't forget the early picks in the draft after the next one.

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Between our dreams and actions lies this world

Next year will not be an option. A Drover's dog could coach the team to over 5 wins next year. The natural improvement in the list, especially from stars such as Murphy and Gibbs will put paid to that.

Quite simply this will be our last chance in a long time to snare a great player for free. Every side needs a base of very good players to build a team around. IMO we are still a couple of great players away from having that base. The closer they are in age the better as well, we want them all growing up playing footy together.

Of course it is not just about the top picks, but IMO they are the base, the 'cream' is what your recruitment team can get from the 3 round onwards. That is what makes top 4 sides!

But we haven't even got the base, so IMO the tank this year will give the club a base to work from and improve from.

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|♥♥♥♥♥♥| http://www.blueseum.org |♥♥♥♥♥♥|

...To be honest guys we are not good enough at the moment to win any games whether we want to or not. The games we have one were against the bottom side, the scum who were up 8 goals and relaxed, and the doggies and power who other than us are probably the two most unaccountable sides going around and we met them both when they were in a bad patch.

Now that we are finally giving our kids some game time (thank God for that) make no mistake they will play with as much passion as they can muster but it will not be enough to win games (it will have nothing to do with tanking). The reason is our run home is very tough against (with the exception of Melb) teams trying to make the eight who have so much more to play for.

The only danger game is against Melb in the last game and this will only be a danger game if Melb haven't won any more games from now till then. But even so our current list would not be able to beat them especially at the "G".

So all those advocating for us to tank. No need to be alarmed or concerned. We will be trying to win every signal game we play but will not be good enough to do so. Of course this is given that Pagan remains coach till season's end...

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" Koutoufides has taken the last quarter by the scruff of the neck..." Commentary Drew Morphett Last Qtr '99 Prelim. Pure Gold.

Thanks for the memories Kouta. You are and always will be a True Blue Carlton Legend. #43.

Thanks CB - Kreuzer is the only name I keep hearing in this draft, so am assuming that he is the man for us.

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“It is a state of mind, a system of belief, a way of seeing the world, a deep faith that, because you are Carlton, you belong to something great.” - Mike Fitzpatrick articulating what Out of the Blue means.

The reason why we should not win another game this season is because we qualify for a REAL priority pick this season (NOT the joke pick 17 we got last year as the PP). We have been robbed over the last few years of the PP, now is our turn to get it back.

Next year will be a different story. We will have a new coach, more young gun kids and more experienced younger kids from this season. We will win 8-10 games next season.

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Walk on, Walk on,
With hope, in your heart,
And you'll never walk alone,
YOU'LL NEVER WALK ALONE!!!

08/02/1981 - GATE 7...Our brothers will never be forgotten!!!

Jars, did that drover's dog go through the process or did Melbourne just sign Voss before us?

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