You only have to look at what Collingwood are doing right now with a bunch of well drilled commited kids and you see how Denis' excuses just dont cut the mustard anymore.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

Anyone remember the list back in 2003/2004? We had a slight issue with lack of height both forward and back. Even in the midfield, we were small.

A short-sighted approach would have been to go for the small mids who could have made an immediate impact. Instead, we went for tall players who'd take a few years to mature. Even Walker, good as he was, took a few years to develop.

The advantage of this approach is that we'll have a solid core of taller KPPs and utilities who will be ready to make an impact over the next couple of years. Any who don't look as though they'll make it can be traded or delisted to make way for mids.

As of the draft this year, we go mostly for mids. We should be able to grab a couple who are ready to go next year.

As with cooking, the approach isn't to throw all the ingredients into the mix at the same time. Some take longer to prepare than others. It's a sign of a good cook to realise that.

I'm pretty happy that we have coaches and recruiters who have an overarching plan for our team rather than the ad hoc policies which some would like.

But it really depends on whether you want a mosquito fleet, or an athletic and strong aerial team for the future. If you want to go the mosquito fleet route, I'm sure you'd be salivating over the Doggies.

The other thing is that you'd think that someone who has a list of bigger blokes at his disposal might think about adopting a long-and-direct approach. Taking marks inside 50 just might help. Especially if the Carlton-listed players are trained that way. Trying to play a short-kicking possession style is plain dumb.

And you'd also be active over the summer to try to recruit a few midfielders into the Bullants. If you had a bit of an idea, that is.

Pagan has more pseudo-ruckmen on our list than runners....

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

My point exactly Synbad. Once our tall players start to mature and provide the strength we require in addition to some experienced mids, we can then drop new kids into the team with good effect.

How are they going to mature when we prefer to play Kouta / Saddington/Lance???
Pagan is too conservative.
Our kids looks too restricted .
Our players look undrilled.

All that falls back on Pagan.

Collingwood had alot of kids including talls and they all knew what was needed they played with intensity and flair.
Their senior players are not passengers and they all play to a plan and believe in the message.

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

We've had a bit of bad luck with injuries though, Synbad.

Clearly, Grigg was slated for an early introduction. His preseason was good. Then he breaks his shoulder. Tragic. That would have thrown a spanner in the works.

Edwards was closing in on selection, and then he does his heel.

Anderson turned it on against Eagleton, and then he injures himself.

Aisake puts in some good games and is on the cusp of selection - and now he apparently has OP.

Benjamin has had injury problems.

Jacko gets a call-up, and breaks his hand within minutes of his first senior game of the year.

Then there's Bower. I'm sure he'll make it, but he doesn't yet show the qualities you admire in the Collingwood boys. He wouldn't appear to be well drilled because accountability isn't his strong point - odd indeed for a defender. If you don't like the fact that Lance, Kouta and Saddington leave their teammates with a lot of work to do, this shouldn't be good news to you.

Jacobs, Hampson, Austin, and Jamison are obviously longer-term propositions.

You saw tonight's game as well? We're a long way behind them .... and there's no one to deliver 'the message'.

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"IF YOU FAIL TO PREPARE, YOU'RE PREPARED TO FAIL" - Mark Spitz

More injuries than everyone else or a more unbalanced list than everybody else???
As well as five years of wasted development because we should have a pattern of playing football by now... but we dont.
Plus alot of players having the flair kicked out of them by Pagan .. compare to Malthouse and how he allows his players to take em on.
Malthouse doesnt play Pendlebury or Thomas at backpocket.
Everyone understands to attack and defend

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

The difference between us and a team like Collingwood at the moment is quite simply discipline and 4 qtr committment. We have a ton more class in our team than Collingwood yet the difference is miles apart. We are lazy. They are not. They play close. We do not. They sacrifice their games for their team mates. We do not. They chase and harrass. We do not. They do their utmost to make a contest every time. We do not. They play their kids on the ground for the full 100 minutes and give them specific tasks. We do not and never will under Pagan. We make up all the feeble excuses in the book. They do not even though they have a very long injury list.

I've said this before when we change coaches (very soon I hope) we should seriously look at Bluey Mckenna.

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" Koutoufides has taken the last quarter by the scruff of the neck..." Commentary Drew Morphett Last Qtr '99 Prelim. Pure Gold.

Thanks for the memories Kouta. You are and always will be a True Blue Carlton Legend. #43.

I'd say that we've had more injuries with the youngsters than the Pies have had for sure. I don't follow them closely enough to say, but I'd be surprised if any of the ones playing now have had serious injuries. It's hard enough to break into a side without losing your momentum, form and fitness in the middle of your first year.

Not surprisingly, the Pies' youngsters find it easier to fit into a successful side and show flair in that environment.

Thomas hasn't been used as a back pocket, but then again neither has Murphy.

Pendlebury hasn't been used in the backpocket either, but then again Eddie Betts has never been used in defence.

Murphy has been allowed to play creatively as that's the sort of player he was when he came into the AFL. Now, unfortunately, he's thrust into the No. 1 midfielder's role (unlike Thomas), and is struggling. He's been sent forward to allow him to create there instead.

Gibbs made mention a number of times during the preseason that he found it difficult to adjust to the tempo of AFL. In his interview after the Rising Star nomination, he said he was happy with the defensive roles.

Chip Le Grand said during the week that the U18 coaches he'd talked to were unanimous in their view that the boys need work on their defensive side when they come into AFL footy. He said they didn't think that they already had the opportunity to develop their flair at U18 level.

Gibbs will be better for the experience, and I'm sure that JR and AW will be too. That beautiful goal on the run against the Hawks showed that AW hasn't lost any of his flair, as does the fact that he's still flying for his marks.

Youre abit biased if you really are using that as an argument.
Pagan cant develop because he doesnt understand modern day football.
Gibbs defender
Walker defender
Simmo hbf
Russell defender
Houlahan defender
Lappin defender
Scotland defender
Carrazzo just got out of defence.
Betts.. concentrates more on forward line pressure.(Defender in the forard line)

But may i ask you what our game plan is??
Has there been a period of time since Pagans been here that we have played a sustainable gameplan??...

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Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of electricity, gas, and oil....... the Light at the End of the Tunnel has been turned off. We apologize for the inconvenience.

I wouldn't be praising Malthouse for the promising form of the Collingwood youngsters

I'd say their development coaches have plenty to do with it

I hope we go no where near McKenna and instead consider someone like Gavin Brown

We're too one dimensional and only play at one pace which is flat out until we burn out. The good sides all play tempo footy depending on the sitution. When Sydney are getting pumped they slow things down so they can try and wrestle back control. When we're getting pumped we keep doing the same shit and end up getting humiliated.

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"We used to sit around and talk about how bad the game plan was." Anthony Koutoufides

Seens Gibbs can see the point -

http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/footy/common/story_page/0,8033,21867778%255E19742,00.html

I wonder why Malthouse doesn't play the Shaws in the midfield or in the forward line? And Lockyer has spent a lot of time as a back pocket. None of those decisions have been bad ones. It also doesn't seem to have hurt Lindsay Gilbee. Aussie Jones started out as a forward or mid, and then switched to back pocket.

Why have successive coaches played Wirrapunda in the back pocket? He's a bit like Houla, don't you think? Plays loose but if he's on he provides a lot of rebound.

Rebound. That word again. Keeps coming up in the modern game. Maybe Pagan wants to have rebounding defenders like Scotland? If so, that's hardly the tell-tale sign of a coach struggling with the modern game. Not that he needed to play copycat. David King was a pretty decent modern rebounding half-back flanker.

Strange that all of the players you nominated have continued to improve (perhaps with the exception of Skinny who's on the decline now).

In particular, Carrazzo would have to be a testament to good development. He came to us as a rookie reject from Geelong. His ability to lock down opponents won him selection when his difficulties with kicking would have made it difficult for him to play forward or even in the midfield. Now he is well-rounded player able to play tight or creatively. Far from killing his creativity, he's now able to rack up nearly 40 possessions in some games and kick important goals. He still has a tendency to try to run around 1 too many players and sometimes he gets caught. Next time you see that, try telling yourself that his flair has been eradicated.

Surely, your question about the game plan is rhetorical. TheGame knows what it is, even if he thinks it's too predictable and inflexible.

And yes, it is sustainable. With another preseason to refine it, it will be less predictable. But in order to recalibrate the decision-making of the players, it was entirely appropriate to tell them to concentrate of backing themselves and running or kicking the ball forward quickly, even if uncontested possessions aren't possible. They can develop alternative styles once they've mastered the central theme.

But the most important thing is that the players appear to fully support this style. They enjoy playing it as it gives great opportunities to show their flair. They don't have to chip sideways for fear of making a mistake. They can go to a contest inside 50 and give blokes with the X factor like Waite every chance of doing the incredible.

This one knows what he's talking about (except in regards to speeches made by Brett Kirk).


Fair call in isolation, but I don't think I should expect any less of our recruiting team to keep harvesting what it feels is the most talented player at a particular draft pick.

From this year on however, small need to be selected over talls to some degree.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

You're giving this thread far too much credit Indie.

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

Cant agree.

Most clubs would be holding list structure meetings this time of year. They'd be identifying what their percieved weaknesses will be in 2-3 years down the track and using those as a guide.

The fact that Carlton did'nt take a 17 year old ruckman in the National draft until 06 is indicative of our blinkered approach.
How many years is it since we took an under 18 ruckman in the National draft Jim?
10 years?
Thats the sort of short sighted crap being wallpapered over in this thread.

We're being expected to swallow Denis Pagan as some sort of champion of youth.
The names Ackland, McLaren, DeLuca, Mott, Bryan, Cloke and the ill fated Gardiner would tell me that planning for today is his forte'.

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Looking forward to seeing our potential realised.

Aah. King Mick is it?
I for one hope not. He is far too serious and blinkered for mine. I would prefer someone younger and for me, SOS has a lot going for him. Apparently he did really well in his role with the Oz team in the international series. Plus he is serving an apprenticeship at another club, which I think is an advantage rather than have an assistant promoted into the senior position. And yes, I know Roos did it.
I also reckon Mark Harvey would be a ripper, having served a long time under Sheeds, (whom I rate as a coach), even though as a player I hated Harvey's guts for always trying to flatten David Glascott.

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Let slip the Blues of war (with apologies to William Shakespeare) (and Sir Francis Bacon, just in case)

Knowing how competitive our club has been in all aspects with Collingwood throughout our history, last nights positive display of youthful performance by the pies would've definitely stirred the competitive juices of our hierarchy... "why aren't we performing like that? .. "

Pagan = dead man walking.

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There's so much I could say...

The filth have very good development coaches in Brad Scott & Allan Richardson.

Who are our development coaches

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Cheats never prosper (except in the AFL)