I'm really having an issue with comments like this and similar comments that were in the papers about how the disappointing thing for Carlton was that it was the 'experienced' players who did the bulk of the work. I think there is a misconception that we dont have quality experienced players. We do, we have a talented core group of seasoned players - Stevens, Houlihan, Scotland, Kouta, Fev, Whitnall, Thornton etc. It's ridiculous to think that they wont be the standouts this year.

The main change over the past couple of years is that our drafting strategies have enabled us to bring in talented young kids as well. The result of this is that we have 22 players on the field that are up to AFL standard - we are not carrying anyone. For these 'experienced' players, this has a couple of outcomes. Firstly, for the midfielders, we are able to provide a deeper rotation that means they are able to stay fresh. We are able to do this because our second-string midfield is up to AFL standard and will not get smashed. Secondly, it means that opposition teams cant just target a couple of players knowing that if they close them down, we will struggle to win. This is especially evident in the midfield now where opposition teams have to deal with Stevens, Murphy, Gibbs, Kouta, Houlihan, Russell, Carazzo, Simpson etc. Also, it means that a guy like Thornton is now not carrying the whole of the backline on his shoulders. Waite and O'Hailpin have come through and now he can play his rightful position as an attacking defender playing on the third tall forward.

Our experienced players now have support. As we have a focus on youth, does that mean that we dont want to see this core group playing well? Its a silly comment to say that this team has proven to be unsuccessful. This team, even if the set-up does not contain a wealth of new players, has guys who are providing support and are now AFL ready.

For mine the main one I would have liked to see was Bower, because I have him near to our best 18, even with Thornton, Santy and Waite there....

I'd bring Bower in for Saddington... or rest Kouta

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Love Cricket? Love me

Pagan wanted to win, the club wanted to win, we nearly got 1000 new members..if we had played kids on mass we would have lost.
Everyone wants to see the newbies and see who the next stars are and a few kids from other clubs started with a bang ie Thomas and Campbell from the Kangas but we needed the win more than showcasing young players....time for that during the season..

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"When you have the attitude of a champion, you see adversity as your
training partner."
- Conor Gillen

Absolutely.
Pagen needs to put the best backline together... including Bower, Thornton, Santy and Waite and get them to eat, sleep and play together as much as possible.
I also would like Joe Anderson be setup as a specialist, speedy backpocket.

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"Carlton's most loyal, their bruised and battered egos now seemingly a bad dream, drank beers, murdered pies and cheered every time Judd touched the ball."

Can't say that I was that disappointed with the line-up, it had a good balance of height, strength, general athleticism with a sprinkling of experience and nous.

Bower for Saddington, maybe rotate out Young to get a look at another young'un or Blackwell, then maybe think about resting one or two of Kouta, Whitnall and Lappin.

Then the week after maybe look at Hampson for Ackland if he comes up short again (I wouldn't really entertain that in the season proper until later on in the year).

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29 different attributes,
And only 7 that you like;
20 ways to see the world,
Or 20 ways to start a fight.

I'm thinking Russell.... but reality is that role would rotate through the middle so it would be played by Walker/Scotland even guys like Gibbs etc at times.

I'm thinking a back six consisting of Thornton, Bower, Waite, Santy... and then at any one time Walker, Russell, Scotland, Simpson, Houlihan, Gibbs etc etc is a mouth watering mix.

Thornton is a really creative player... more so than many of us see... I would try and free him up as much as possible, and Santy Bower and Waite provide a lot of freedom of match up to make that possible.

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Love Cricket? Love me

Sensible demands. That's pretty much all I'm asking for.

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

It seems like you have your navy blue glasses on ttd2004. Which is better than any other colour I guess! Look, I love your passion for the blues, but the way you talk about us sounds like you think we're finals contenders.

I agree with your comments about our back line, much improved on last year probably which will help.

Can't agree with your assessment of our 'experienced core' compared to other clubs.

If one of us has to be right in the long run, I'd rather it was you! But, personally, most of my hope is placed in our current list (i.e. the young guys, who I wanna see!), not our current team.

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They will know that they've been playing against the famous old dark blues

I guess it comes down to this Simon. And these are the actual facts of the matter regardless of opinions.

A fitness coach and 5 other coaches/assistants who live with the 44 guys day in day out don't agree with throwing the young kids to the wolves if either.

A) they aren't ready,
B) don't deserve it
C) don't suit team balance,
D) don't suit the set up
E) mean the difference between a win/loss
F) means others they really want and need to look at playing new roles miss out

And remember it is the new guys like Rats, Braddles and GC who are making these decisions so don't lump it all on DP head etc etc.

Regards Cazzesman

PS. Maybe if Jars has a lazy afternoon free he could go through the top 30 draft picks from the 2004 draft (which means the kids are now at the start of their 3rd season) and see how many games those kids have played with their respective teams so far.

I suspect many will have played very few but the results will be interesting across all clubs.

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Ricky Gervais - “Everyone has the right to hold whatever beliefs they want. And everyone else has the right to find those beliefs f***ing ridiculous.”

Can we save this till the end of season 2007 - I am hoping Adam "The Woof" Hartlett will be making a very steep curve up the rankings.

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"Hence you will not say that Greeks fight like heroes but that heroes fight like Greeks"?

Winston Churchill

Under that theory, if we dont win a flag in the next 5 years then why play Stevo and Whitnall? and Fev at 26 years, you might also want to include him too...

Fantastic Post TTD!

Like many here, I wasn't that worried about the team that went onto the ground the other night. We have a large group of aspiring players, mostly kids, who are close to getting a taste. We need to give a few of them a taste without compromising the team. We did OK - we played Gibbs, jackson and Young of the newest, Kennedy and Murphy from the previous batch, etc. We gave some of our senior players a go, through the rotation. No worries.
If we make a few changes and still have a similar structure against the Hawks I will be happy enough. I would like to see Bower get a go, as I think he is a guy with a lot of flexibility. Blackwell or Benchy maybe. Maybe give Jackson a full game here and bring in a lad to replace him.
We have a number of aims for the NAB Cup, which are not necessarily compatible with each other:
[1] Win, because we need the money.
[2] Win, because we need the confidence and winning culture.
[3] Give the kids a taste of the big time.
[4] Gradually work our older players into the game, especially those recovering from operations.
[5] Work on team structure.
It is a case of blending the goals as circumstances allow to get the best result overall. But if we go with only 1, we harm ourselves in the longer term.
I reiterate, I think last week we considered all of the goals and chose a side accordingly. If we can do the same thing this week, then good.

Surely some of the older blokes like Kouta Lance & Lappo can have a rest this week and give the likes of Harts Edwards Flinty etc. a run ...surely!

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There's so much I could say...

I think you are on the money dadadada. Quality Carlton teams of yesteryear never exposed their young draftees to the rigours and physicality of senior football. Doull played plenty games in the magoos.The newies were nurtured along. Having said that becuase we have been starved of success, we as supporters tend to get impatient with our progress and want to see what our future will look like.

I prefer Bower to Saddington because he represents our future success however we have invested lots of money and tume in Saddington for us to say we will pay you the big bucks to play for the Bullants. If Bower is ready and I am sure he is, they cannot find an excuse to keep him out of the team. There is plenty of youth to wetten our appetites.

Conundrum

At the risk of sounding like a simpleton.

We have a core of experienced players, all clubs do.

we have a desperate need to fast-track our youth.

Expose too many youngsters at one time to demoralising losses (and after our summer of discontent a 1st up loss would demoralise.) and we risk hindering their developement.

Because we have so many on our list that have been in the system 0-2 yrs we cannot afford to play all of them at once. as they all gain winning/competitive exposure then we can load them up some more.

Finally because the gap between our young players and experienced players is wider than most clubs we must be very careful how we manage the balance. Better to be cautious at this time. we have 22 rounds with little hope of sept to sort out our list.